Shadow Game - First Time at Monarch

[lymond]

Ah yeah, I meant to follow-up on the boxed-in comment that OD made earlier. yes, despite some jungly stuff on the vicinity, this is very good land. Plenty of room for cities, and some good early cities to be had.

At this point, one could go either way on the slavery switch/settler whip. In one respect, it does show OD the power of whipping where he sees that the settler is at almost a max point for OF for the 2pop whip (67/100H).. Likewise, that timing of the worker chop is perfect to combine with the OF of the whip for fast new worker.

Conversely, slow-build settler and switch to slavery as it moves saves anarchy in the new city. A new 4>2 worker whip can go into a new settler. The question is the chop as it would finish the last turn of the settler build. I guess you could chop into the settler with OF next turn into new settler or new worker (if total hammers less than or = 29H into worker.)

Peaceful route is certainly fine, although I do think Monty is closer than one would think. If peaceful route though, I'd probably just go straight to Alpha after Writing on this level.

 

[Fish Man]

Monty has other people to beat on, you should be safe for now. Also barbs shouldn’t be a problem on monarch - their spawn rate is so low and they enter borders really late.

Anyhow after BW I recommend fishing, pot, and then writing and alpha. Granaries and libraries are must-have buildings on a map like this. Settle your third city on the SW PH so you can access 1 clam immediately and the other with a border pop. On monarch the AIs are so slow that they might not even have writing by the time you get alpha, opening up some good trades. GLH could be an option if you can quickly trade for masonry and sailing, considering how helpful org is with fast lighthouses. In my playthroughs I tried a fancy Oracle play too and got CS at 650BC, so if you want you could try that too. There’s no rush - the land here is more than good enough to casually tech to lib, cuirs, and cannons.

 

[Donald Duck1]

Conversely, slow-build settler and switch to slavery as it moves saves anarchy in the new city.

But because of slow-building it will be founded a few turns later. How is that an advantage? I guess I'm missing the point.

 

[Gumbolt]

Pends how many turns you save from whipping. Not to mention 10 turns whip anger and loss of 2 pop.

T1 anarchy.
T2 Whip settler.
T3 Settler arrives.

No whips.
T1 build settler
T2 Build settler.
T3 settler arrives

How is the settler found a few turns later? It will be built on exactlty the same date. The difference is the anarchy will happen while the settler moves. Sure you miss out on the 27H OF. But you have 2 pop that can be whipped later. I see little value in whipping now. Your whipping away a 4h tile too. Chop might complete worker with OF.

You could 2 pop whip worker with OF anyway?

Fishing as next tech? Too many sea food resources to ignore? Nice for extra commerce. Every new city I see needs fishing! Rest have jungle covering resources.

 

[krikav]

The settler is indeed out faster with a whip.


T32 3 turns to settler.
If slowbuild:
Settler will be out T35, it will walk in anarchy T35 (lost turn) and walk again T36. T37 the city will be settled and start contributing.

If revolt->whip:
T32 revolt (lost turn)
T33 whip
T34 settler done (walking)
T35 walking
T36 city is settled and starts contributing.

So revolt right away and whip does get you that city one turn earlier.

But you will also have two pop less for some turns, and you will perhaps get the next build later.

 

[krikav]

@Gumbolt yes, could get too much hammers into worker with that chop.
But that could be solved by putting one turn into worker before chop lands. Settler will be finished the same turn anyway (turn after chop lands).

 

[Fippy]

While overflow is good, i also look at whip urgency (ugh finding all those words in english ).

Your next city will either take rice from Berlin, or develop rather slow. No connection for trade route.
So my thinking goes, does settling this 1t sooner give a gain? If we take rice, what about Berlin regrowing after being whipped..could be slow?

Let's also look at the possible OF + chop 2nd worker, no wheel yet so he might go chopping as well.
Lots of we dun actually want you farms, or we cannot afford working you yet Jumbos

"Verdict"? Both settler and worker are not super urgent = i would whip neither of them.
Plains mine with 1c is fine early.

 

[lymond]

But because of slow-building it will be founded a few turns later. How is that an advantage? I guess I'm missing the point.

I think you kinda missed the point of my post

 

[OldDude]

Awesome discussion everybody. This is the level of thought I'm trying to get to in this crazy addicting game. In reading all of the posts it looks like there isn't a consensus but things aren't too far off from each other.

I do like @Fippy's comments on the settler whip aftermath too. With only 2 pop and the new city taking the rice regrowth would be slow in the cap especially with no granary yet. An endless supply of trade-offs.

I should be able to get back to it for a bit tonight and I think I'm going to run a few tests for educational purposes. I'll go the slavery/whip route and go for about 10 turns. Then I'll reload from T32 and go the slow growth route for about 10 turns. Take some notes and compare. Not to try to prove anybody right or wrong, rather to try to "get a visual" on what (if any) differences there might be and if they are significant or not. Is this worthwhile to do?

Thanks to ALL for your feedback. I appreciate it very much!

 

[OldDude]

Monty has other people to beat on, you should be safe for now. Also barbs shouldn’t be a problem on monarch - their spawn rate is so low and they enter borders really late.

Anyhow after BW I recommend fishing, pot, and then writing and alpha. Granaries and libraries are must-have buildings on a map like this. Settle your third city on the SW PH so you can access 1 clam immediately and the other with a border pop. On monarch the AIs are so slow that they might not even have writing by the time you get alpha, opening up some good trades. GLH could be an option if you can quickly trade for masonry and sailing, considering how helpful org is with fast lighthouses. In my playthroughs I tried a fancy Oracle play too and got CS at 650BC, so if you want you could try that too. There’s no rush - the land here is more than good enough to casually tech to lib, cuirs, and cannons.

Nice @Fish Man! Could you describe what that fancy Oracle play entailed?

Thanks!

 

[lymond]

Oracle CS is a fairly common strategy on lower levels - mainly Emperor and below, but there is no guarantee. Sometimes you can get a feel for the Oracle dates by the completion dates of other early wonders. (someone around here knows that a lot better than me.) Certain Leaders on the map, regardless of level, are a threat to Oracle like Izzy and Justy....in other words leaders that tend to focus on religion paths. Pacal is a moderate threat, but can go either way. You need to self tech Maths and CoL. A Maths bulb would help. CoL requires Priesthood anyway (unless you go the more expensive Currency route), so that will open up Oracle to start putting hammers into. Just time the finish of Oracle to when CoL finishes, assuming Maths is already bulbed or teched. Meanwhile, as you should already be doing, develop cottages around Berlin. Early bureaucracy is very powerful.

 

[OldDude]

OK, I played to T45 with the whip and without. This got me to a second settler/city. In general, going the whip route created the 1st city 1T ahead of the slow build route (as @krikav said). It was also 1T faster to the 2nd city. Not a big difference, in the short term anyway. I think the big difference is that the cap is pop-2 at T45 with the whip vs. pop-4 without.

@lymond was right in that with the whip and next chop the next worker was out in 1T.

So you guys know your stuff!

Anyway, since it's only a 1T difference and my build options are limited at this point, I think I'll go the slow grow route. I like the idea of keeping Berlin at pop 4 until I really need/want a whip. Is this wrong? Does this 1T really make a difference at this point?

Spoiler T45 with Whip :

Spoiler T45 without Whip :

 

[OldDude]

Oracle CS is a fairly common strategy on lower levels - mainly Emperor and below, but there is no guarantee. Sometimes you can get a feel for the Oracle dates by the completion dates of other early wonders. (someone around here knows that a lot better than me.) Certain Leaders on the map, regardless of level, are a threat to Oracle like Izzy and Justy....in other words leaders that tend to focus on religion paths. Pacal is a moderate threat, but can go either way. You need to self tech Maths and CoL. A Maths bulb would help. CoL requires Priesthood anyway (unless you go the more expensive Currency route), so that will open up Oracle to start putting hammers into. Just time the finish of Oracle to when CoL finishes, assuming Maths is already bulbed or teched. Meanwhile, as you should already be doing, develop cottages around Berlin. Early bureaucracy is very powerful.

Thanks @lymond. When I was playing on Warlord level I almost always got the Oracle but since then I haven't really tried for it mainly because I started skipping the early religious techs as I learned how to play better. Getting that free tech sure is nice though. Moving forward I'll try to keep the eyes open to the possibility.

 

[Fippy]

Nowhip save looks good on city micro
I noticed you still revolted into slavery earlier, seems not needed cos you made no whips?

You can whip the worker build in Berlin next turn (waiting for pottery, so not this turn) by not creating more than 10h and staying under 30 (working 2c silk instead of ph mine), into a granary & complete with chopping. Much better than whipping the first settler earlier imo.

 

[lymond]

One thing I'd point out is that while it is great that you noticed to just great the 1 road to the river for city connection to Hamburg, the FP took 3 turns to road. The tile with rice would just take 2 turns. Yes, difference seems small, but each of these turns matter so much early.

I think NE warrior can stand right on that tile 2E of fish, since it is kind of a chokepoint, preventing barb dudes from sneaking by. E warrior can move all the way to the Gems, which is a good spot to ice down most of that region, with the exception of a few tiles E of the scout. But the scout should be able to cover that soon when Berlin gets its second pop. I think NW warrior is great there..lotsa visibility. Some uncovered spots below him, but new city will light up tiles around jungle dyes. maybe one more warrior outta Hamburg good now.

Definitely look good here. I think clam city probably next. yeah, no threat to it, but it is a close by city that has some productivity.

 

[OldDude]

OK, I played 6 more turns, from the T45 save up to T51. But first...

@Fippy - Yes I did revolt into slavery. I did it at the end of the turn, right before I hit the "End Turn" button so the revolt impact is pretty much nil, correct? But yes I didn't need to at that point. Great tip on timing the whip for the granary. That granary was out in 1T after the whip and chop. Pretty cool and that's something I have to try to remember to look for all of the time.

@lymond - You are right, sir! I didn't notice (for some reason) that I could have roaded the rice tile in 2 turns, saving a turn. I guess I was too proud of myself for noticing 1 road would connect those cities.

Spoiler T51 :

I know I have unhappy in Hamburg but that is due to no garrison. After that granary finishes I should probably build another warrior to resolve that? I can start building cottages now that pottery is in. Building granaries in Hamburg and Munich and getting another settler out in Berlin. Chopping in Munich for that granary.

As you can see, I'm teching Fishing now and I have to remember to move my slider to 100% before I hit "End Turn." After Fishing, it's Writing then Alphabet. That's the plan. Hopefully I'll be able to trade for IW shortly after Alph. Concur?

Holding here for now. Thanks again!

 

[lymond]

OK, I played 6 more turns, from the T45 save up to T51. But first...
Yes I did revolt into slavery. I did it at the end of the turn, right before I hit the "End Turn" button so the revolt impact is pretty much nil, correct?

I'm honestly a bit lost as to when exactly you switched to slavery. But before "end turn" has nothing to do with a civic switch. This is a turn-based game. A turn is a turn. Anarchy still lasts a turn..meaning that when switch to Slavery you go into Anarchy for 1 whole turn - whether the switch is the beginning or end of the turn. When you "End turn" your empire does not progress in any way IBT (in between turns). Normal beaker output is shutdown, gold generation is shutdown, gpp is shut down, production and growth shutdown...nada. (Sorry if you understand this more that I think, but this is an important fundamental concept of TBS) In other words, it is actually when you hit end turn that the impact of Anarchy is realized. Not sure I explained it all that well.

The noted exceptions is that beaker overflow is applied to the next tech you select, if you just finished a tech and overflowed some beakers at completion. Also, cottages still grow during anarchy, which is actually a good thing to note as you might switch citizens to focus cottages, even switch specialists to cottages for that 1 turn of anarchy.

So the point that folks are trying to make is that you switch civics when the new settler is walking to the new spot. Therefore the new city will not be impacted by anarchy.



I'm off to bed, but I'd really like to see you manage things better in terms of letting cities grow into unhappiness. I haven't opened the save to check what is going on with Hamburg to note timings. hamburg could have either stalled on a new settler or whipped the granary. If you grow into unhappy do so with a plan to whip something immediately (multiple citizens), but otherwise try to avoid it. I'd rather see Ham building a settler while maybe Berlin gets some growth for a bit ..maybe build a warrior or two for mp.

Did you hook up ivory?

I think I'd like the worker cottaging the berlin FP first....shared cap cottage spots take priority.

 

[OldDude]

I'm honestly a bit lost as to when exactly you switched to slavery. But before "end turn" has nothing to do with a civic switch. This is a turn-based game. A turn is a turn. Anarchy still lasts a turn..meaning that when switch to Slavery you go into Anarchy for 1 whole turn - whether the switch is the beginning or end of the turn. When you "End turn" your empire does not progress in any way IBT (in between turns). Normal beaker output is shutdown, gold generation is shutdown, gpp is shut down, production and growth shutdown...nada. (Sorry if you understand this more that I think, but this is an important fundamental concept of TBS) In other words, it is actually when you hit end turn that the impact of Anarchy is realized. Not sure I explained it all that well.

LOL. See, I didn't know/realize that the anarchy effect is realized at the end of the turn. All this time....geez. At any rate, I don't remember exactly but I think I did revolt when the settler was on his way to the PH (right before hitting end turn after his first move). Either way, that's good to know.

The noted exceptions is that beaker overflow is applied to the next tech you select, if you just finished a tech and overflowed some beakers at completion. Also, cottages still grow during anarchy, which is actually a good thing to note as you might switch citizens to focus cottages, even switch specialists to cottages for that 1 turn of anarchy.

So the point that folks are trying to make is that you switch civics when the new settler is walking to the new spot. Therefore the new city will not be impacted by anarchy.



I'm off to bed, but I'd really like to see you manage things better in terms of letting cities grow into unhappiness. I haven't opened the save to check what is going on with Hamburg to note timings. hamburg could have either stalled on a new settler or whipped the granary. If you grow into unhappy do so with a plan to whip something immediately (multiple citizens), but otherwise try to avoid it. I'd rather see Ham building a settler while maybe Berlin gets some growth for a bit ..maybe build a warrior or two for mp.

Did you hook up ivory?

I think I'd like the worker cottaging the berlin FP first....shared cap cottage spots take priority.

Is there a way you can tell when a city is about to become unhappy because of no garrison? I know how to watch for "it's too crowded" but not for "we fear for our safety."

Yes ivory is hooked up.

Good point on the FP cottage.

Thanks.

 

[Fish Man]

Agreed with everything @lymond said. After clam city I would definitely go to the SE fish. It has THREE food specials in the BFC and plenty of cottageable grass riverside tiles.

@OldDude - I was surprised you didn't go fishing first. If you had before pottery, you would've gotten a 20% discount on researching that tech (or is it researching it 20% faster...not sure the details but the general idea is the same). The basic thing about techs is that for every direct prerequisite you have (as indicated by an arrow pointing to it), you research that tech faster.

After fishing definitely go writing and then alphabet.

Good job on city placement - those are not where I would've put it but decent spots nonetheless. A small critique - I would've 2-pop whipped a granary in Hamburg. At 4 pop that city is both unhappy and unhealthy, decreasing efficiency a lot; if you had the granary earlier you could've put the OF into a warrior to get rid of 1 , gotten an extra , AND grown twice as efficiently from then onward.

What follows is more of a theoretical discussion on tech order - you don't have to replay turns but in shadowing your shadow game I experimented with some things. That being said...I went TW, fishing, and pottery all before BW. My rationale for this was fourfold: with the sizeable sum of extra commerce I got from those techs (city connections, WB/working water tiles, and cottages, respectively), I would've reached BW in short order anyways, and furthermore be in far better economic shape to show for it. Additionally, having granaries quite early on increases whip efficiency by just about double, meaning you get more mileage from BW if, by the time you reach it, granaries are in place or at least in progress. There are not a lot of forests and not a lot of food to start with anyways (wet rice and hill pigs is solid, but the rest is seafood requiring WBs and/or border pops), so the actual gain from whipping compared to not whipping and chopping later is dampened, say, compared to a triple wet corn start with flatland pigs and wheat nearby while every other tile is covered in forest. Finally, the saying "food is king" still holds true - and I feel like I got a lot more out of this start from settling the obvious 1st-ring food sources and teching what enabled me to improve them as fast as possible; hence, fishing at least before BW. Keep in mind too that even unimproved, seafood is a nice source of early commerce, acting basically as a riverside cottage that needs no workerturns or pottery and cannot be pillaged. Same with lake tile(s) as well.

Anyhow - here is my 2240BC position; notice how I have pottery and all the stuff before, but also am just about at BW as well, AND I have 3 cities to show for it - even without whips or chops I haven't had much trouble expanding. The only drawback to a tech path like this is having to slow-build work boats for a bit as well as lower production in general at least until BW, but here the PH helps a lot, and once BW is in I can get those suckers out in a pinch. I do need more warriors though. About to whip a worker in Berlin in 3-4 turns; using whip OF to complete granaries is also something I like to do. Finally, notice the lion to the right - barbs units haven't even started spawning in full force on t44, as there are still animals. This alone should demonstrate that, on monarch, on a map like this, barbs shouldn't be a problem until much, much farther down the line, if ever.

Also if you're planning something with the GLH and/or Oracle it helps to save some forests...like I eventually do here.

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

Is there a way you can tell when a city is about to become unhappy because of no garrison? I know how to watch for "it's too crowded" but not for "we fear for our safety."

Thanks.

No, the ivory is not hooked up.

Well, it's pretty simple really. Without any happies connected, the cap gets an extra happy from the Palace, so it will need MP at Size 5. All other cities need MP at size 4. (Note: Charismatic trait gives one extra happy from trait and 1 from a monument)

So, what you do is either stall growth in a city - like with a worker or settler - or plan to 2 pop whip something at size 4 (or 5). For instance, Hamburg could have planned to 2pop whip granary at size 4 but too late since more than 29H has been produced (40H). Or 1 pop whip the granary earlier at size 3 or 2 into a settler or worker for a bit until unhappy wears off or you can station a unit there.

Happy/unhappy can be seen in the top right of the city screen just right of the Food Bar at the top. Regardless of what the messages say in the tooltip there, it is simple math.
inot
I think you best thing here in Ham is to queue up a worker this turn and then immediately 2pop whip it next turn into the granary. New worker can hook up ivory and then help chop around Munich or cottage.

Berlin worker might as well start road to clams city. Hop on pigs to road then road a tile N of pigs. Then he can move to forest next to plains hill near clams to start chop for WB, which should work out well if my timing are correct.

I'd say 1pop settler in Berlin in 2 turns into granary, then let Berlin grow for a while. 1t into granary then start a warrior.

Finish Fishing now, you've accumulated too way more gold than you need to finish it. Try to be cognizant of that. You want to complete techs as soon as you have enough gold.

Yep, as Fishman said, and he should know his Fishing, here I would have teched Fish before POT for the bonus.

(A second scout wb out of clam city later might be nice to open trade routes along coast. Just start sending it W/NW toward Monty)