Shadow Game - First Time at Monarch

This is a great reference thread. I just came back to Civ and downloaded the save and played to about turn 60.

My first game back, was a loss on Warlord (got beat in Space Race). So this difficulty level is high, but I feel like I can learn a lot by playing alongside.
 
This is a great reference thread. I just came back to Civ and downloaded the save and played to about turn 60.

My first game back, was a loss on Warlord (got beat in Space Race). So this difficulty level is high, but I feel like I can learn a lot by playing alongside.
Welcome aboard!

You'll definitely learn a lot by following along. When I first came here I think about a year ago I was on Warlord level too and here I am giving Monarch a go now. Good luck!
 
Ok, I will list some tweaks to the current turn, but first I would impress upon you to check your cities each turn and make sure they are working improvements where possible. I'd remind you, just in case, that cottages do not grow unless worked by a citizen.

1) Berlin - I'd say whip Library now into barracks. We want this city to grow into scientists. It will grow into 1 scientist next turn. Take cottage when complete with scientist, then grow back into 2 scientists there. After barracks, Berlin can probably just build research for a time.

2) Ham - Take cottage down S from Berlin this turn. Queue warrior to grow in two turns onto completed ivory...finish settler.

3) Munich - take cottage that is unworked currently. Will slow Lib whip by a turn by that is ok. (edit: okay ..change my mind..let's get that settler out now...2pop it and send it to the pigs city West) This delays fish a bit but city is at least working cottages. I think getting cities up is more important now, especially with IW trade close.

4) Cologne - work the grass hill for 1t. This adds a hammer that will allow you to 1pop gran next turn...this works well there.

5) Frank - just chopped into gran, so work the forest grass hill for 2 turns to complete gran at perfect point (12F out of 24F to grow...let me know if you don't yet understand this concept)

Other things:

Scout should stand 1S of current position as it busts that fogged coastal tile to prevent galley spawn

Cities in order:

2S of Fish on desert tile E of Ham. This city will grab the gems eventually and share pigs with Ham...nice spot even though food is not in first ring, but you are settling with knowledge that pigs is available soon. Probably trade for Myst soon here so can get monument there.

1SE of Pigs to the NW is the only spot I would settle there. Pigs obviously - you should have IW soon - plus dyes, banana, and a shared cottage tile with Berlin

Cow/wine city I'd probably just settle on the wine...Cows will eventually be grabbed long before by borders from Cologne..city is fine here and does not need to be coastal. Actually could be decent production city with food from farms and cows.

Post again next turn so we can assess tech trades initially. Archery you would not like to trade for usually.

You can see Mansa's tech now with an 8ep buffer on the threshold. I might start some EP on someone else like Pacal or Joao - both good candidates. Leave Mansa at 1 weight and put 1 weight on Pacal, which means 2ept on each leader. Keep an eye on this each turn or so in case Mansa bumps his EPs on you. You can adjust the weight accordingly.
Yes I am checking my cities each turn, I just have to get better at recognizing what the best plays are. I think moving forward I'll just move citizens around to see what works best instead of just looking at it and going, "yeah I think that is good."

I think I've followed your suggestions exactly but I was unsure about "Take cottage when complete with scientist..." in #1. If you're referring to the FP cottage, that is already being worked.

On #5, if you could briefly explain what you mean by "perfect point" that would be great.

So I just finished T75 and now I'm on T76. I haven't done anything on this turn yet except accept OB with Maya.

Finally, since I am sorely lacking in Espionage, can you explain what you mean by "8ep buffer on the threshold"? What makes Pacal or Joao good candidates? How can you tell when an AI bumps his EPs on you? Sorry, I really haven't paid a lot of attention on the espionage aspect of this game.

Spoiler T76 :
Civ4ScreenShot0110.JPG


Holding here for now. Thank you!
 

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I've played 10 more turns and hopefully I'm in good shape.

Munich: 1 plan to 2pop the library and that should happen in 2t.
Hamburg: Building settler there to keep from growing, at least until that whip unhappy is gone.
Berlin: I could 2pop the library now for 33OF. Berlin is only size 4 but grows next turn. I'm thinking I should go ahead and whip, putting the OF into a settler for 1t? Then finish the barracks after that.
Cologne: Building granary there, will 2pop when I can.
Frankfurt: Almost done with granary, library next to get some culture going.

1t away from Alph. I'm thinking of Maths > Construction > HBR to get Elephults online asap. It hasn't been an issue so far only having warriors but that won't last forever. I'm pretty sure right after Alph is in I could trade for archery just in case until someone trades me IW.

I've marked a few potential city spots that I think might be good.

Spoiler T75 :
View attachment 530819On a second look, I'm thinking that potential city spot 2E of the nanners isn't good; no food at all in the inner ring. Maybe 1N of there?

Holding here for now. Thanks!

My next 2 settles would claim the fish + gems, and then on the PH where your warrior is fogbusting. The latter spot has 3 food resources, 1 in the first ring; ideal for GP generation and/or whipping units every 3 turns to quickly build up an army. And it also blocks quite a bit of land. After that I would go 2E1N of the upper nanners, which claims corn - a strong food resource, that you do not have, in the first ring, and also eventually dyes. Following that, a city on the jungle near the wine way down SW is optional. Thereafter you should need to settle no more new cities; you can set up an engineering rush but the land is good enough to casually tech to cannons if you wish to go down that path.
 
Yes I am checking my cities each turn, I just have to get better at recognizing what the best plays are. I think moving forward I'll just move citizens around to see what works best instead of just looking at it and going, "yeah I think that is good."

Honestly, I'm not sure I see a much difference in those two trains of thought. :lol: But actually, what we are trying to get you to here is a state of mindfulness of of what tiles cities should be working. Early on your growth might outpace your improvements for a time, but when you get improvements like food and cottages, you try to work them as much as you can. (well, specials you always work or share between cities depending on growth needs).

So my point at the time was directed at Munich, which was working two plains tiles while a cottage was sitting there unworked between Munich and Ham. (ofc,then I told you to whip the settler anyway as one analysis contradicted a later analysis). I can see an argument at the time to get the Library whip faster, but the counter is growth and growing cottages. Anyway, just food for thought.

Again, basic idea to keep in mind is always work specials (or share as needed), focus growth when growing, focus best tiles when building workers and settlers (always working improved tiles first)

Always feel free to ask if you are unsure about these things. I do try to give some advice on this aspect when I review your saves but that generally only applies to said turn or maybe I plan out a couple, but most of the turns you play you are making the decisions.

I think I've followed your suggestions exactly but I was unsure about "Take cottage when complete with scientist..." in #1. If you're referring to the FP cottage, that is already being worked.

Sorry, I can see that being a bit unclear. I was referring to the cottage in process NW of Berlin. Berlin just completed a Library and was going to grow on unimproved tiles...work a scientist with new citizen. Then when that cottage is complete in a couple of turn, move scientist to new cottage - maxxing growth and growing that cottage. Then Berlin can grow back into scientists so that it runs two of them for the academy. Ideally the point here was that a) you really want Berlin running two scientist asap b) work scientists over unimproved tiles c) but Berlin is growing nicely and we want to grow its cottages d) new cottage has no helper city nor ever will e) lastly - once Berlin grows into 2 scientists I see it will be at happy cap so this works well.

On #5, if you could briefly explain what you mean by "perfect point" that would be great.

This is a tad complex. I'll answer tomorrow as I'm spent.

So I just finished T75 and now I'm on T76. I haven't done anything on this turn yet except accept OB with Maya.

Can't review things tonight..almost zzzzzzz

Finally, since I am sorely lacking in Espionage, can you explain what you mean by "8ep buffer on the threshold"? What makes Pacal or Joao good candidates? How can you tell when an AI bumps his EPs on you? Sorry, I really haven't paid a lot of attention on the espionage aspect of this game.

Take a look at the EP screen at what you have on Mansa. Over on the right look at the line time "See Technology". You have X amount of EPs on Mansa, and need Y amount to see his tech. I forget amounts but the difference was 8ep. (That Y amount constantly changes based on what you've invested in the leader and what they are investing in you) Right now you are ok because Mansa is only investing 2ep per turn. You've been investing 4ep per turn on him.

So you might start investing a bit into another AI. Pacal and Joao are good as they are strong techers, especially Pacal who is almost Mansa like in research rate though less generous trader. Ultimately, you will get a feel for who the better AIs are in the game the more you play, but Mansa is always the best. Pacal, Willie, Lizzie are strong techers, and oddly most Imperialistic leaders are strong AIs in this regard with notable exceptions like Genghis Khan, who sucks.

Anyway, nothing to get hung up on at the moment are far from important at this stage. You can just keep things the same with Mansa for now. Up to you. But do note now that you can see what he is teching. Really helps in assessing trades. Other than you, Mansa really sets the tech pace.
 
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This is a great reference thread.

+1 Wholeheartedly Agree :thumbsup:

@lymond 's educational comments were/are extremely helpful and enlightening to me as I was/am still learning Civ4

Spoiler :

played up about 1000BC a few days ago
Civ4ScreenShot0072.JPG


Probably wont continue (as playing other games) but would consider pigs/banana and wine/gems next
 
Interesting save. I've forced myself to pay attention to city tiles every turn.

Spoiler T 114 Surprise :

Pacal declared on me. His visible stack isn't super big, and I just whipped a bunch of Axemen.
Dhyxtd3.jpg


Berlin has been my cottage city, while I've got some fuzzily defined city ideas in the other locations.

My economy was kinda stalled out on Alphabet for a while, but while I'm behind most AIs in tech I've been able to trade a few things like Monarchy.
 

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Ok...I looked at tech screen and I think a good trade is Hunt/Writing for Sailing/Myst with Hammy. I often avoid trading for little techs like Myst, but I think it is ok here and will be nice to have in new cities that needborder pops like fish/gems sooner than later. Might as well gift BW to Asoka and Pacal..neither will trade even myst for it so you know they are close to finishing it. These little gifts like this can add up to diplo points later combined with other trading. Anyway, no harm in those gifts. But point to remember, is you can often assess what AIs are teching by checking the trade deals with them - even easier with Currency when gold is in play.

Mansa has IW only for now but that may change soon. He just finished a tech so you will see what new tech he started next turn. Probably Writing.

Once you trade for Sailing, check to see if you get foreign trade routes. Not sure yet if you will. You have closed borders with Monty (who does not seem as universally disliked as when I played)

Joao is just NW of Munich but coast may not be open. You can move oddly placed warrior next to Monty's border up to where the warrior on PH stands, and move that warrior 4N2E to open coast..he can stay there.

Pacal is due NW of you. Not sure yet where Mansa and the others are (Note: If you click the Globe button on the bottom right to zoom out, and then the culture button to the left, you will see visible cultural borders - even at the edge of the fog. This can give you an idea of proximity to AIs - also can be a nice tool while scouting intially in a game).

I might consider OB with Monty since only Mansa doesn't like him, but I'd wait to see if you get foreign trade routes from other civs first. (If you haven't figured this out yet, foreign trade routes are more lucrative than internal routes, so you want to get them as soon as possible.

Other things this turn, if not mentioned in yesterday's post:

1) Again, in Berlin, switch new citizen from mine to scientist this turn. Then next turn move scientist onto newly completed cottage. You will also be one turn from growth next turn, so this essentially maxes food that turn for a little more boost to growth. Next two citizens born in Berlin will go straight to scientists and stay. (don't forget)

2) Cologne - whip granary now .1pop..into Lighthouse if any OF - ORG bonus (maybe not any since gran is right at 30H). If no OF then Library. Later you can whip a worker in Cologne at size 4 into LH..you will need the worker.

Everything else ok I think.

Frank worker can put 1t into road 1N on spice, then 1t of road 1N of spice (1W of Berlin worker now). Berlin worker finishes cottages then finishes that road 1W of him, as Cologne worker moves 1NW to start road. Cologne worker moves to forest 1E of Banana. Berlin worker finishes that road that will connect new pigs city you are moving settler to now.

Munich settler can settle fish/gems.

Check trade each turn, but don't just trade stuff for trading stuff. Don't trade for archery. Stop and let me know if you have questions.

edit: you will need to run 0% research for at least a couple of turns or so to fund Maths. You can check that each turn as timing of Maths may alter based on Berlin scientists, gaining foreign trade routes, progress on existing cottages.

lotsta think about ..ha
 
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Honestly, I'm not sure I see a much difference in those two trains of thought. :lol: But actually, what we are trying to get you to here is a state of mindfulness of of what tiles cities should be working. Early on your growth might outpace your improvements for a time, but when you get improvements like food and cottages, you try to work them as much as you can. (well, specials you always work or share between cities depending on growth needs).

So my point at the time was directed at Munich, which was working two plains tiles while a cottage was sitting there unworked between Munich and Ham. (ofc,then I told you to whip the settler anyway as one analysis contradicted a later analysis). I can see an argument at the time to get the Library whip faster, but the counter is growth and growing cottages. Anyway, just food for thought.
OK, gotcha. I did make the conscience decision to work those two plains tiles because I wanted to get that library out quicker. So, bad decision. I should have been working that cottage instead.

This is a tad complex. I'll answer tomorrow as I'm spent.

Can't review things tonight..almost zzzzzzz
No worries. I appreciate your help and make no demands.

Take a look at the EP screen at what you have on Mansa. Over on the right look at the line time "See Technology". You have X amount of EPs on Mansa, and need Y amount to see his tech. I forget amounts but the difference was 8ep. (That Y amount constantly changes based on what you've invested in the leader and what they are investing in you) Right now you are ok because Mansa is only investing 2ep per turn. You've been investing 4ep per turn on him.

So you might start investing a bit into another AI. Pacal and Joao are good as they are strong techers, especially Pacal who is almost Mansa like in research rate though less generous trader. Ultimately, you will get a feel for who the better AIs are in the game the more you play, but Mansa is always the best. Pacal, Willie, Lizzie are strong techers, and oddly most Imperialistic leaders are strong AIs in this regard with notable exceptions like Genghis Khan, who sucks.

Anyway, nothing to get hung up on at the moment are far from important at this stage. You can just keep things the same with Mansa for now. Up to you. But do note now that you can see what he is teching. Really helps in assessing trades. Other than you, Mansa really sets the tech pace.
Thanks!
Spoiler EPS Screen :

So now after putting one point on Pacal, I'm spending 2ept on Mansa and Pacal each. Mansa is spending 2 on me and Monty is also spending 2 on me, correct? Any time my EPs on an AI falls below the "Can See Research" amount I won't be able to see what they're teching, right?
Civ4ScreenShot0111.JPG


I'm going to go ahead and play a few more turns. I'm teching Maths right now and I think I can make some trades. I'm thinking I should trade for Myst and Sailing at least? I don't know if I can get IW yet.

Thanks again!

EDIT: HaHa...it looks like you were posting the same time I was again. Let me go over that and catch up. Thanks.
 
Actually, stop on next turn after reading what I wrote above. i want to see if things happen as they did when I click end turn in your game.

Another note for next turn is that Ham worker can move to chop forest E of ivory it finishes this turn. Switch to settler in Ham next turn, before finishing warrior.

Cologne takes lake from Berlin next turn to max growth, and starts LH with bonus OF.

(still need to answer question on granary point from yesterday)..will work on that.

yep, correcto on EPs

(oh..library idea in Munich was not necessarily bad per se, a faster lib there is good for getting fish. might have done that if not for the whippable settler inside. But do think about improvements too)
 
Alright, played to the next turn. I think everything is right, although Cologne could not take the lake from Berlin, it is Frank that could. There was no OF in Cologne from the Granary whip.

Regarding Cologne and Frank, both need a border pop to reach their other seafood special. As far as priority goes, does the LH have more priority than say a Monument to get that border pop? I've usually gone the culture route first in those cases so I want to know if I should change that up.

Spoiler T77 :
Civ4ScreenShot0112.JPG

Thank you.
 

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Sorry, I meant Frank with the lake. Actually, cologne has 1H of OF..check the tooltip. You have 1 base hammer in Cologne now and 1 OF hammer. Notice that it is 4H production into LH. That's the Organized bonus. Yeah, it is just a little bonus here but you just doubled your hammers. Now if you build LH for a few turn and whip worker at size 4 I bet that completes the LH. More bang for your buck. New worker and new LH lickity split.

One worker that completes road to new pigs city can move direclty back to forested Frank hill and chop the LH out there which should time with finishing Maths...a Maths chop will complete a org LH in 1t..granted you will have some hammers going in LH already..that'll be OF later.

I get what you are saying about the unreachable food in Frank and Cologne but I'm inclined to ignore that for now over fast LHs. It's different for a city like fish/gems that needs that fish (although pigs may be able to be improved soon to share with Ham..not sure though) Frank and Cologne do have food though for now..and are not desperate for the other sources.

...and..you just might catch religions now that you have foreign trade routes - did you check for that by the way ;) ...sometimes religions can be worth waiting for in the case of getting culture if routes are open.

In other words, I generally avoid Monuments unless I can't help it. Its 30H better spent elsewhere. But sometimes they are necessary.

oh..and you forgot to max out gold for a couple of turns. I played two turns and maxing gold for just turn turns should be plenty to finish with the other gains in the empire.

edit: Trade Writing to Asoka for Masonry..that is a good trade.. AIs often will not trade masonry early cause of wonders so grab it. It leads to Construction anyway..though you will go HBR first.


AAAAAAnd..switch to scientist to cottage this turn...

oh..Buidling Research in Berlin is GOOD...really nothing better to build there right now anyway and we want it to GROW
 
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Sorry, I meant Frank with the lake. Actually, cologne has 1H of OF..check the tooltip. You have 1 base hammer in Cologne now and 1 OF hammer. Notice that it is 4H production into LH. That's the Organized bonus. Yeah, it is just a little bonus here but you just doubled your hammers. Now if you build LH for a few turn and whip worker at size 4 I bet that completes the LH. More bang for your buck. New worker and new LH lickity split.

One worker that completes road to new pigs city can move direclty back to forested Frank hill and chop the LH out there which should time with finishing Maths...a Maths chop will complete a org LH in 1t..granted you will have some hammers going in LH already..that'll be OF later.

I get what you are saying about the unreachable food in Frank and Cologne but I'm inclined to ignore that for now over fast LHs. It's different for a city like fish/gems that needs that fish (although pigs may be able to be improved soon to share with Ham..not sure though) Frank and Cologne do have food though for now..and are not desperate for the other sources.

...and..you just might catch religions now that you have foreign trade routes - did you check for that by the way ;) ...sometimes religions can be worth waiting for in the case of getting culture if routes are open.

In other words, I generally avoid Monuments unless I can't help it. Its 30H better spent elsewhere. But sometimes they are necessary.

oh..and you forgot to max out gold for a couple of turns. I played two turns and maxing gold for just turn turns should be plenty to finish with the other gains in the empire.

edit: Trade Writing to Asoka for Masonry..that is a good trade.. AIs often will not trade masonry early cause of wonders so grab it. It leads to Construction anyway..though you will go HBR first.


AAAAAAnd..switch to scientist to cottage this turn...

oh..Buidling Research in Berlin is GOOD...really nothing better to build there right now anyway and we want it to GROW
Cologne building strategy...nice! Tricks of the Trade. Gotta remember this kind of stuff.

Gotcha on Monuments.

I did notice I didn't max gold after my last post so I changed it afterward before going to the next turn.

"switch to scientist to cottage this turn." ???

Thank you.
 
Ok..turn 77 is good point to discuss this optimizing granary thing taking Cologne and Frank into consideration as we just completed granaries. So why did we do it like we did here?

First, granary stores a cites food surplus between growth points. The granary gets full so that the city grows faster each turn..usually half a city's food bucket. A granary needs time to store that food. Generally the ideal point to finish a granary is before a city's food bin reaches the haflway point - that is at or below that point. (food bin is right above production bar). This gives time for a granary to store food although a city's food surplus can factor there as well.

In cologne we had you work the 2F1H hill for those two turns to finish a gran in 2 turns. I could tell by reading the food bar that the turn the granary completes the bar would read 12F/24F. That is 12F stored out of 24F need to grow to next pop. Perfectly halfway.

Frank was at size 3 with the ability to whip gran with 1 pop immediately. I think it had just grown or maybe a turn into growth but far from storing half of food needed to grow. So whip that gran. Now this turn Frank is 10F/24F...so below halfway...GOOD.

Now keep an eye on these cities as they grow to size 3..that very turn they grow check the food bar and note what it says.

feel free to ask questions.

oh..food surplus is the amount of food the city produces from tiles worked (and city center) less food eaten. You can see that just left of food bar. Frank is currently +5 and Cologne is +4. Food surplus allows the city to store food to grow pop, and completed granaries stores that surplus each turn up to a point to grow half bin next turn.
 
ugh..typo..switch the scientist to the cottage this turn...as i'd mentioned before
 
check your cities..check the trade routes..whatcha see? ...what are the differences?

ok..i'm out..it late here...might check in quick to answer in questions though before zzzz
 
check your cities..check the trade routes..whatcha see? ...what are the differences?

ok..i'm out..it late here...might check in quick to answer in questions though before zzzz
Yeah, I see foreign routes, +2, as opposed to +1 on the internal routes. Double your money.

Thanks for the explanation on the granary. I kind of had an idea about it but it's nice to have some clarification.
 
I've played to T90. Maths is in, HBR 1t away. Construction next?

I've been able to trade for IW with Mansa, with Archery as a deal for Alph so I finally have metal. Some religion has come into my empire but I haven't converted to any of them yet. Joao settled in that corn spot that I had marked so that is out. There is a bit of open land still to the west of Essen but that will probably fill up before I can get there. It's pretty barren anyway unless I would be able to share the pigs and/or nanners with Essen. There's also the jungle to the north of Hamburg where I could put pressure on that barb city...but again from what I can see there isn't much there, plus all of the jungle.

Berlin: Still building research. At the happy cap with growth in 6 or 7 turns. What then? Start building some military?
Hamburg: Settler 3t away. He will settle the wine spot. Have some room to grow to happy cap. After settler, military?
Munich: 3t from border pop, building WB. Working 1 plains tile to get the WB 4t faster.
Cologne: 1t from Lighthouse. Library next?
Frankfurt: I have unhappy here. It hit on this turn because I didn't notice it coming on. I moved the worked tiles to become stagnant for now. WB out in 3t, as well as a border pop. After that, a warrior or archer for MP duty.
Essen: Building Granary. I could 1pop it but should I with only 2 population?
Dortmund: Building Monument as a border pop is needed sooner here for the fish and gems.
Spoiler T90 :
Civ4ScreenShot0113.JPG

I'm sure I've missed a thing or two I could have done better so I'll hold here for now.

Thank you.
 

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My next 2 settles would claim the fish + gems, and then on the PH where your warrior is fogbusting. The latter spot has 3 food resources, 1 in the first ring; ideal for GP generation and/or whipping units every 3 turns to quickly build up an army. And it also blocks quite a bit of land. After that I would go 2E1N of the upper nanners, which claims corn - a strong food resource, that you do not have, in the first ring, and also eventually dyes. Following that, a city on the jungle near the wine way down SW is optional. Thereafter you should need to settle no more new cities; you can set up an engineering rush but the land is good enough to casually tech to cannons if you wish to go down that path.
Hey @Fish Man thanks for the advice. It looks like from what you suggested and what I've done up to now is pretty close. I did miss out on the corn city though, to Joao. I plan to settle on the wine, SE of Hamburg. After that, like you said, it might be time to start putting some military together.

Thanks again.
 
Spoiler T 140 shadow :

War continues. All my cities with Hindu so I stupidly decided to choose the Religion that only Aztecs have.

Just got Construction in a trade with India. I'm dumb, I should have beelined that. Oh well.
I've pushed Pacal off my lands, but my stack is pathetic. His size 2 city has a lot of defenders in it. But I burned a new city.
Probably should have ended the war a while ago.

V2Cbh7n.jpg

 
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