Shadow Game - First Time at Monarch

[lymond]

Well, Dortmund definitely...that city should be growing..the pigs is not being worked at all. No happy issues here. Frank is going to whip WE this turn, so tile is irrelevant as you will whip off it.

Trust me, this is where you really need to learn and feel the effects of the whip and understand the balance. First, when you 2pop whip you are whipping away 2 citizen. Yes, you gain 1 whip unhappy but that is only per whip regardless of # of citizen whip. So you are whipping 2 and gaining the whip but losing two citizens at the same time which loses 2 from citizen alone. Therefore, net of 1..

The balance comes from the multi-citizen whip, the fact whip unhappy wears off in 10 turns, and knowledge of new 's to come. It is not though that you are going whip > turn > whip in every city. But in some you will whip at least twice or thrice in short term.

For example, Essen is going to be great for 4>2 cat whips as it will grow fast now with pigs online and soon 3F nanners tile. You will get several out of there.

Don't be afraid if a city runs an unhappy citizen for a bit, just be prepared to time a good whip.

Cities like Frank have good natural hammers - you will never whip off the iron and clams - but after a couple whips you might slow build there. In fact, the next WE after the one you whip now will be slow built - like 3 turns it will take if I recall.

Dort can 4 whip a cat soon into gran...and a chop should finish gran or another cat whip.

Try this with one rule in mind..don't whip off strong tiles ..mainly food or strong hammers, though whipping off ivory is fine. Find the balance there...keep improved tiles worked as much as you can.

Also, as mentioned, but maybe not clear enough. Be cognizant of overflow from each complete whip build. What is the OF and what is current base hammers of the city? How many hammers will that put into the next build? Does it exceed the amount to 2 whip that unit (see math i mentioned earlier)? Or does the city like Frank have enough pure hammers that with OF you can slow build the next unit in short time?

Another example is Essen again. You whip that first cat (2pop) and get say 15H OF. Essen has like no hammers (1 base). You know you can't exceed 19H in cat. So put those 15H into cat, actually 16H will go into next cat with the 1H from city. Check city tiles as it grows. You need to grow to 4 again to whip, but be wary of the city selecting the unimproved PH. If you see you will exceed 19 on a given turn before hitting size 4, either adjust tiles to 2F grass or queue the Library back up until you can whip..or something like an axe, which can almost completely be built from cat whip overflow. These are things you can try and must learn to excel at war and getting armies out fast.

Start being aware of the math behind all this...

Once you have a good army out. You can probably start war with Monty with 6 WEs, 6 Cats and an axe or two. More units will follow and you will continue building but can tone down the whip a bit. But still whip where feasible.

Oh and Berlin, I think maybe whip a WE like I said timed with the worker chopping the forest 3W of Berlin, use OF and chop to slow build next WE there. Maybe whip another in Berlin, but stop after that..just slow build them there. Berlin needs to work cottages and maintain research.

That Berlin worker, once he finishes the chop, can start improving silk next to city (improve that one first as it is on river I believe) as you should have Calendar trade by then. Then that worker moves to Berlin PH to complete a road to speed troop movement from E cities.

Other Berlin worker moves to gems. Pigs worker near Munich/Dort moves to forest S of Dort to chop.

Everything should be about war right now. Even Dort and Stutt as the work in their granaries. Stutt is good for some cats after the gran is chopped.

(Lastly, if you have not noticed yet, with the exception of Mansa, who you've been trading with liberally anyway, you are killing the AIs in tech - probably far beyond what you've conceived of in the past)

edit:

In a past post you had said I needed to watch my happy cap closer and not let unhappiness happen in my cities. So I've been trying to manage that by moving citizens around to slow growth. Here you're saying don't worry about unhappiness. That's fine but I'd like to understand the difference. Is it because we're prepping for war?

I remembered I would like to address this more directly, although in some ways it has been answered. But that point mainly was that in the past, even in long passive times, you were just sitting around with unhappy cities and not paying much mind to them. Unhappy citizens do cost you.

Here though you are using those unhappy guys and gals. An unhappy guy is worth the same 30H as a happy gal when you whip it. And you won't have as much unhappiness as you think you will.

You will find the balance. It is time to learn.

(and even in those passive times you can use unhappy citizens as long as you have a plan to do so like 3-whip a settler or library. There's no problem using that growth for production as long as you DO use it)

 

[OldDude]

Attaching a save 7 turns later.

I have 6 WEs and 6 Cats and 1 Axe, most of which are in or near Essen. A couple of roads would have helped early like there is one missing between Ham and Berlin.

Frank just whipped a WE so that is 7. Overall units still on the way with every city building them now. Dort I put a chop into gran, and cat whip will finish gran at size 5. (that's one way of getting a gran while getting units as well).

Oh..Calendar trade. Mansa will trade it, but the turn before put 80% into Calendar. two things to consider here - first Mansa will have a Monopoly on Calendar when he has it, which inflates the value. Second, I just whipped away a bunch of beakers that turn so needed more into Calendar. yeah, this is ..ha..hindsight, but you have the benefit of my foreknowledge. You could just put another turn into Calendar. (AIs can change there mind though any turn when it comes to wonder techs)'

Hammy had Monarch right after so no problem trading Alpha and Calendar for it. (did not switch civics yet though)

oh..stop at Currency

I played to T107 to see if I could match what you accomplished. Almost. I have 6 jumbos, 5 cats, and 1 axe with another axe coming in next turn. I made the Calendar trade with Mansa and the Monarchy trade with Hammy. I improved some roads and I've got a worker improving the gems, a worker improving the silk, and a worker improving the bananas. I have a worker chopping a forest in Dort, with the plan to put that chop into a Granary. I just finished Currency and queued up Feudalism.

Spoiler T107 :

Holding here. Thank you.

 

[lymond]

Ok good. Improving the wrong silk though ..no biggie. I think when the current troops in the field reach Essen and can all move together, then move on Monty.

I'd like to ask you about your feel for the usage of hammer OF from whips in production of new units. Take Munich for example. What would you do there?

Also, Dort as example, what would you do there this turn?


A few thoughts:

1) road on desert near Dort unnecessary. Improving Gems would be first priority regardless (chopping jungle first by the way). And assumption is that worker finishing forest below Dort this turn would move to forest 1E. A road could have been placed on that tile instead to connect gems later.

2) Go ahead and 1pop cat in Stutt into granary

3) Berlin should work cottages and focus growth...note it loses a this turn and will soon gain two more. But go ahead an 2pop that WE now in Berlin, and then make sure Berlin continues growing on cottages. It can slow build WE next with no more whipping there.

4) Axe in Essen is fine..assume that received OF from previous cat whip. Essen can do another cat afterwards...2pop it after 1t of production first

5) Trades:

-After Currency, it is time to check trades and trade resources for gpt. Always do this and always check every turn.

-trade clam to Joao for 2gpt. (you could cancel fish and trade that, but no one else needs clam at the moment, and more resources means more diplo. )

- If someone else who wants fish though gets some gpt then cancel fish trade with Joao and trade for it

- Trade fish to Mansa for 1 gpt.

Now another meticulous little thing you can do is check tech trades against other techs and gold. I already did this this turn. Try this, check the Calendar trade to Joao..what happens? What if you had checked that trade a turn or 2 sooner?

Check techs against other AIs techs and gold. What they might give in return can often tell you what they are teching based on value of techs and how much gold they give you - all of gold? or part of gold? You will get a feel for this. But the point here is doing this allows you to possibly get some more gold if an AI is close to finishing a tech anyway. You know what Mansa is teching cause of EP so you assess when to trade something to him. But everyone else, doing the trade check helps a lot.

Go head and trade IW to Pacal for 20g only. IW is old news and he is likely teching it anyway.

Trade Priesthood to Joao for 30g. Gift him Calendar if you have not already figured that out

Hammy likes you. Beg his 40g. In dialogue, select his 40g and you will see an option "Can you spare this for a good friend". He will agree. You can beg from AI at Pleased or better. The amount depends on how long you know them, but usually in the range of 30g to 60g or even a bit more. You can do so every 20 turns or so. (Note: It also creates a Peace Treaty for 10 turns. This can be a nice little trick if an AI is Pleased but still may be targeting you in Fist Mode. Some AIs do declare at Pleased)

Anyway, this turn you will gain 90g for practically nothing and an additional 3gpt.

Continue to monitor these trades, including resources, every turn. You can renegotiate resource trades every 10 turns.

 

[OldDude]

Ok good. Improving the wrong silk though ..no biggie. I think when the current troops in the field reach Essen and can all move together, then move on Monty.

I was already improving that silk before I saw your post on improving the other one. Yep, should be doing the other one as it gives 1 more.

I'd like to ask you about your feel for the usage of hammer OF from whips in production of new units. Take Munich for example. What would you do there?

Also, Dort as example, what would you do there this turn?

I think I've got a much better understanding about OF and where to put it based on what your goals are now than I ever have. In fact, I never changed what I was building to catch the OF before this game and I've seen how effective it can be. With that said, regarding Munich, I have 26OF there. Letting it go to a cat means 24t before that cat is out unless I whip it sooner. But whip anger is stacking there. So should it go into an axe instead? That would be 9t to build.

With Dort, there isn't any OF. I plan to put the forest chop into a granary though, then 2pop that and have that OF finish off the cat I'm building now.

A few thoughts:

1) road on desert near Dort unnecessary. Improving Gems would be first priority regardless (chopping jungle first by the way). And assumption is that worker finishing forest below Dort this turn would move to forest 1E. A road could have been placed on that tile instead to connect gems later.

I thought I saw when hovering over the gems that a route was needed so that's why I went ahead with that road. Now when I hover I don't see that a route is needed so honestly I don't know what I saw. If a route is not needed then yeah building that road was a waste of time.

2) Go ahead and 1pop cat in Stutt into granary

3) Berlin should work cottages and focus growth...note it loses a this turn and will soon gain two more. But go ahead an 2pop that WE now in Berlin, and then make sure Berlin continues growing on cottages. It can slow build WE next with no more whipping there.

4) Axe in Essen is fine..assume that received OF from previous cat whip. Essen can do another cat afterwards...2pop it after 1t of production first

5) Trades:

-After Currency, it is time to check trades and trade resources for gpt. Always do this and always check every turn.

-trade clam to Joao for 2gpt. (you could cancel fish and trade that, but no one else needs clam at the moment, and more resources means more diplo. )

- If someone else who wants fish though gets some gpt then cancel fish trade with Joao and trade for it

- Trade fish to Mansa for 1 gpt.

Now another meticulous little thing you can do is check tech trades against other techs and gold. I already did this this turn. Try this, check the Calendar trade to Joao..what happens? What if you had checked that trade a turn or 2 sooner?

Check techs against other AIs techs and gold. What they might give in return can often tell you what they are teching based on value of techs and how much gold they give you - all of gold? or part of gold? You will get a feel for this. But the point here is doing this allows you to possibly get some more gold if an AI is close to finishing a tech anyway. You know what Mansa is teching cause of EP so you assess when to trade something to him. But everyone else, doing the trade check helps a lot.

Go head and trade IW to Pacal for 20g only. IW is old news and he is likely teching it anyway.

Trade Priesthood to Joao for 30g. Gift him Calendar if you have not already figured that out

Hammy likes you. Beg his 40g. In dialogue, select his 40g and you will see an option "Can you spare this for a good friend". He will agree. You can beg from AI at Pleased or better. The amount depends on how long you know them, but usually in the range of 30g to 60g or even a bit more. You can do so every 20 turns or so. (Note: It also creates a Peace Treaty for 10 turns. This can be a nice little trick if an AI is Pleased but still may be targeting you in Fist Mode. Some AIs do declare at Pleased)

Anyway, this turn you will gain 90g for practically nothing and an additional 3gpt.

Continue to monitor these trades, including resources, every turn. You can renegotiate resource trades every 10 turns.

I'll make all of these moves and post back.

Thank you.

 

[OldDude]

5) Trades:

-After Currency, it is time to check trades and trade resources for gpt. Always do this and always check every turn.

-trade clam to Joao for 2gpt. (you could cancel fish and trade that, but no one else needs clam at the moment, and more resources means more diplo. )

- If someone else who wants fish though gets some gpt then cancel fish trade with Joao and trade for it

- Trade fish to Mansa for 1 gpt.

Now another meticulous little thing you can do is check tech trades against other techs and gold. I already did this this turn. Try this, check the Calendar trade to Joao..what happens? What if you had checked that trade a turn or 2 sooner?

Check techs against other AIs techs and gold. What they might give in return can often tell you what they are teching based on value of techs and how much gold they give you - all of gold? or part of gold? You will get a feel for this. But the point here is doing this allows you to possibly get some more gold if an AI is close to finishing a tech anyway. You know what Mansa is teching cause of EP so you assess when to trade something to him. But everyone else, doing the trade check helps a lot.

Go head and trade IW to Pacal for 20g only. IW is old news and he is likely teching it anyway.

Trade Priesthood to Joao for 30g. Gift him Calendar if you have not already figured that out

Hammy likes you. Beg his 40g. In dialogue, select his 40g and you will see an option "Can you spare this for a good friend". He will agree. You can beg from AI at Pleased or better. The amount depends on how long you know them, but usually in the range of 30g to 60g or even a bit more. You can do so every 20 turns or so. (Note: It also creates a Peace Treaty for 10 turns. This can be a nice little trick if an AI is Pleased but still may be targeting you in Fist Mode. Some AIs do declare at Pleased)

Anyway, this turn you will gain 90g for practically nothing and an additional 3gpt.

Continue to monitor these trades, including resources, every turn. You can renegotiate resource trades every 10 turns.

All trades executed.

Joao would offer nothing for Calendar so that would mean he is very close to teching it? If I checked it a few turns earlier I probably would have gotten some gold for it. Staying with Joao, the purpose of gifting Calendar to him is because it's most likely that he just about has it anyway and it's great for diplo, correct?

Checking tech trades shows that all anybody has that I don't is Archery, which I don't need. But that was a good lesson.

OK, I'm going to go ahead and play a few more turns and post up again then.

Thanks.

 

[OldDude]

I've played to 1AD. I've got gems and silk hooked up and getting started on the winery so having those 2, soon to be 3, more happy resources helps a lot. Since the initial whipping burst I've mixed some slow growth with whipping, as suggested. I've got 8 jumbos with one in transit, 8 cats, 2 axes with another one 1t away in Munich. Road to Monty is ready so I think I'm ready to move on him. 4t away from Feudalism. I went through all of my cities double-checking what tiles are being worked so if you see something that isn't right, it wasn't because I didn't check.

By the way, Mansa offered a trade to me that I turned down because I know he is a teching wizard and I felt like I didn't want to give him Currency:

Spoiler Trade Proposal :

Would you have done this trade? I think it's still available if so.

Spoiler 1AD :

Holding here for now. Thank you.

 

[Fish Man]

I've played to 1AD. I've got gems and silk hooked up and getting started on the winery so having those 2, soon to be 3, more happy resources helps a lot. Since the initial whipping burst I've mixed some slow growth with whipping, as suggested. I've got 8 jumbos with one in transit, 8 cats, 2 axes with another one 1t away in Munich. Road to Monty is ready so I think I'm ready to move on him. 4t away from Feudalism. I went through all of my cities double-checking what tiles are being worked so if you see something that isn't right, it wasn't because I didn't check.

By the way, Mansa offered a trade to me that I turned down because I know he is a teching wizard and I felt like I didn't want to give him Currency:

Spoiler Trade Proposal :

View attachment 531516 Would you have done this trade? I think it's still available if so.

Spoiler 1AD :

View attachment 531515

Holding here for now. Thank you.

With regards to the trade: you should've absolutely taken that. Pushes you closer to CS, gives you more tradebait, opens up org courthouses and phi-caste combo for GP spam, and also is essentially handing you a couple hundred beakers for free - what's not to love?

I think you are still too afraid of the AI at this level, no offense. Mansa with 3 cities will never be a threat, not even if he's an era ahead of you on deity - which he certainly isn't and won't be. Remember two things: in this game, land is power, and Mansa having so little of it means his teching and production will always be behind. And, you as a human can much better use what is available (whipping and GP generation, to name a few things that the AI really sucks at actually using). These two factors combined mean that you have nothing to fear here. Besides, let's critically examine what giving him currency will actually do. 3 cities means 3 more trade routes - that's 6 extra commerce/turn to him. SIX. You are making over 150 research per turn. Giving him currency will have NO bearing on the fact that you have and in all likelihood will maintaining a tech lead for the rest of the game. Oh, and the AI never builds wealth anyways; if anything, he'll be tempted to slowbuild markets in all his cities after getting that tech, because AIs like spamming units and buildings without real rhyme or reason. Worst-case scenario: you have to attack him and he has longbows. OK, who cares? Elepults are more than strong enough to plow through that in sufficient numbers, which you will have because, again, he has 3 cities and you'll have more than 10 by that time. And Mansa has a "resist capitulation" rating of 0, which means that if the other conditions are met you can barely scratch him and he'll be begging for mercy.

PS - I see a barb city in the fog. Might be worth sending some units to capture that in the meantime? 3 phants should do it (barb cities are always only guarded by archery units, and 8 vs 5.25 is a 90%+ odds battle). Get a border pop there and you will probably reach landtarget with Mansa, making him liable to peacevassal once you have feudalism!

 

[sampsa]

Great thread, not just for OldDude, but for others too interested in learning how to master the game. Doing really good too for a first monarch game.

Some comments: managing your cities well improves your game a lot. For me, the best way is to try to think what size would be good for this city (or more accurately, between what sizes should this city be fluctuating?).

For example Essen:

Spoiler :

You have two good tiles, while other tiles are appallingly weak. So the thing to do would be to get up a decent 3rd tile (either a mine or a grass cottage) and ALWAYS 2-pop whip immediately when you reach size 4. This requires queue-swapping, meaning you'll be producing two kinds of troops, for example putting one turn into cat, slow-building axe, whipping cat, rinse/repeat. Working very weak tiles is a mistake and it still seems quite common in many of your screenshots. I'm sure you are getting a hang of it, though, with Lymond's help.

Munich

Spoiler :

Always work the fish and cottages (you built them to work them, right?), while coast is a decent tile, but certainly ready to be whipped away. So whip 6->4. Meaning switch to cat now, whip next turn.

Dortmund

Spoiler :

Always work pig+fish+gems. Ivory is nothing great as it's -negative, i.e. whip 5->3, meaning whip now.

This is regarding the phase of game when you are getting ready to attack, meaning that you need those now. This is not always the case. Growing can be great too, especially before running a golden age or simply when you are planning to tech peacefully.

 

[lymond]

I thought I saw when hovering over the gems that a route was needed so that's why I went ahead with that road. Now when I hover I don't see that a route is needed so honestly I don't know what I saw. If a route is not needed then yeah building that road was a waste of time.

Ok, I'll dedicate this post specifically to this topic as we really need to move past it. I will be good-naturedly harsh and blunt here . Roading that desert tile or even thinking of roads is a noob level mistake. We must break you of this now and move on to better things.

The axiom to go by is "always improve the resource first". Roads, if needed, are always secondary.

Yes, the gems will need a roadt. The worker can place road on that tile after chopping jungle/mining gems. And you know that other worker near there will move onto the forest next to it to chop. He can road that tile in only 2 turns afterwards..the 2 roads connecting the gems to the river. Voila!

This all leads back to one of the first bits of advice I ever gave you - and I'm talking about earlier shadow games you played. Worker management, especially early on, is one of the keys to success in this game and moving up levels. Yes, you will continue to learn some tricks and finesse with workers the more you play, but things like roading stuff before improving resources is definitely something that you need to move on from now.

On a secondary related note to this very issue, let's talk about those gems a bit. Besides strong food resources, of course, flat grass gems are actually one of the best tiles in the game. Granted, gems and gold commerce value decreases over the course of the game, but still getting that commerce online is quite huge at this point. Delaying it any further than needed is just not logical. Once those gems are improved, Dort will always work them. Experienced players absolutely salivate when they roll a start with gems. Flat grass gems > gold too as it is food neutral. Gold is always on a PH or Desert hill and, thus, food deficit.

 

[lymond]

I was already improving that silk before I saw your post on improving the other one. Yep, should be doing the other one as it gives 1 more.

Yes, and the fact that the river silk happy will be online immediately with no road. Then worker can move to PH to road.

I think I've got a much better understanding about OF and where to put it based on what your goals are now than I ever have. In fact, I never changed what I was building to catch the OF before this game and I've seen how effective it can be. With that said, regarding Munich, I have 26OF there. Letting it go to a cat means 24t before that cat is out unless I whip it sooner. But whip anger is stacking there. So should it go into an axe instead? That would be 9t to build.

Think less about "turns to build" as that is really not relevant when whipping, and more about what those OF hammers mean to the ability to 2pop. Obviously, 24H into cat means that you can't 2pop it. So yeah, something like queue an Axe to take the OF this turn is good. But the axe won't take 9t, because you will then queue a cat to 2pop later with that OF finishing the axe. That's the point.

Where "turns to build" comes in is more likely in cities with more natural production like Frank, like when you 2popped that WE earlier and then next WE was completed in 3turns. 1 to 3 turns is likely where you just slow build the item the rest of the way. Otherwise, an item will be either 2popped or completed by OF from whipping something else later.

With Dort, there isn't any OF. I plan to put the forest chop into a granary though, then 2pop that and have that OF finish off the cat I'm building now.

No, the point here is that the cat is at a perfect 2pop whip point...I think it was at 19/50 hammers or close to that if I recall. So you either 2pop it now or, since you are growing this turn, queue something else. What I would have done is start the granary that turn, then let gran take that chop as you mentioned the next turn. You will be at size 5 anyway at this point. Then whip the cat. The OF from the cat will complete the granary.

Once that is done, Dort will grow with pigs/fish onto improved gems, and as Sampsa mentioned, will not ever whip off those tiles. Dort will 5>3 whip units at that point. Whipping off ivory is fine, and Ham likely takes back those ivories at some point..or the two cities continue to share them as needed. Dort will grow back to Size 5 very fast with those tiles, so provides almost infinite whip potential.

Dort is an absolutely rockin' city now..one of your best.

 

[lymond]

I've played to 1AD. I've got gems and silk hooked up and getting started on the winery so having those 2, soon to be 3, more happy resources helps a lot. Since the initial whipping burst I've mixed some slow growth with whipping, as suggested. I've got 8 jumbos with one in transit, 8 cats, 2 axes with another one 1t away in Munich. Road to Monty is ready so I think I'm ready to move on him. 4t away from Feudalism. I went through all of my cities double-checking what tiles are being worked so if you see something that isn't right, it wasn't because I didn't check.

Overall, things look good here. Your cities look good ..good tiles and whatnot. Nothing to point out there. (ha..keep in mind that you were so worried about whipping and happiness, but you got out a fast army and cities look good) The workshop near Munich is not needed now. I'd rather have a worker on those forest down near Cologne and Frank that are available now to chop. Not sure what happened with the cat in Essen, did you whip something into it earlier? Otherwise, as Sampsa said, this city should be 2popping cats at size 4 constantly and using queue-swapping to balance things out.

edit: 2nd essen worker can move to forests. Rogue workshop worker can move to cottage that river tile for Berlin. Then have him cottage river plains tile 1E of there, Munich can help grow that cottage.

But the one major problem here is that you have NOT already gone to war. You could have sent your stack to Monty quite a few turns earlier. What is your thinking on the delay? The sooner you bring him down the sooner you move on to someone else.

I do like the road to Monty though, but you did not need to wait for that to move troops. it does help with the reinforcements.

By the way, Mansa offered a trade to me that I turned down because I know he is a teching wizard and I felt like I didn't want to give him Currency:

Yep, this trade is fine. I did not mean to confuse you with that earlier discourse. The point at the time was that you had a monopoly on Alpha at the time, so just being judicious with Mansa on trading it then, as once he has it he will trade with everyone liberally. But once Alpha issue is out of the way, you are always going to look for good trades.

Trade pigs to Monty for 1gpt. Yeah, you're going to attack him in a coupla turns, but that is a couple turns with 1gpt more.

And trade Currency for CoL with Mansa...he is actually only asking 5g now for it.

And you lost EP sight on Mansa. Keep an eye on this. He will sometimes raise his focus on you and catch up. So just adjust as he does so. He will likely fluctuate his focus. What you can do here is raise EP slider for 1 turn to 10%. Just for one turn then remove it. That should give sight again on what he is teching. Then keep track of his eps on you later. If if stays at 4ep on you per turn, you may just need to go full focus on him for now.

Lastly, curious but also important, what is your target tile to move you stack when attacking Monty? (think about where the city actually is relative to his borders and your roads)

 

[OldDude]

Great thread, not just for OldDude, but for others too interested in learning how to master the game. Doing really good too for a first monarch game.

Some comments: managing your cities well improves your game a lot. For me, the best way is to try to think what size would be good for this city (or more accurately, between what sizes should this city be fluctuating?).

For example Essen:

Spoiler :

View attachment 531528
You have two good tiles, while other tiles are appallingly weak. So the thing to do would be to get up a decent 3rd tile (either a mine or a grass cottage) and ALWAYS 2-pop whip immediately when you reach size 4. This requires queue-swapping, meaning you'll be producing two kinds of troops, for example putting one turn into cat, slow-building axe, whipping cat, rinse/repeat. Working very weak tiles is a mistake and it still seems quite common in many of your screenshots. I'm sure you are getting a hang of it, though, with Lymond's help.

Munich

Spoiler :

View attachment 531529
Always work the fish and cottages (you built them to work them, right?), while coast is a decent tile, but certainly ready to be whipped away. So whip 6->4. Meaning switch to cat now, whip next turn.

Dortmund

Spoiler :

View attachment 531530

Always work pig+fish+gems. Ivory is nothing great as it's -negative, i.e. whip 5->3, meaning whip now.

This is regarding the phase of game when you are getting ready to attack, meaning that you need those now. This is not always the case. Growing can be great too, especially before running a golden age or simply when you are planning to tech peacefully.

Awesome tips @sampsa. Thanks very much!

 

[OldDude]

With regards to the trade: you should've absolutely taken that. Pushes you closer to CS, gives you more tradebait, opens up org courthouses and phi-caste combo for GP spam, and also is essentially handing you a couple hundred beakers for free - what's not to love?

I think you are still too afraid of the AI at this level, no offense. Mansa with 3 cities will never be a threat, not even if he's an era ahead of you on deity - which he certainly isn't and won't be. Remember two things: in this game, land is power, and Mansa having so little of it means his teching and production will always be behind. And, you as a human can much better use what is available (whipping and GP generation, to name a few things that the AI really sucks at actually using). These two factors combined mean that you have nothing to fear here. Besides, let's critically examine what giving him currency will actually do. 3 cities means 3 more trade routes - that's 6 extra commerce/turn to him. SIX. You are making over 150 research per turn. Giving him currency will have NO bearing on the fact that you have and in all likelihood will maintaining a tech lead for the rest of the game. Oh, and the AI never builds wealth anyways; if anything, he'll be tempted to slowbuild markets in all his cities after getting that tech, because AIs like spamming units and buildings without real rhyme or reason. Worst-case scenario: you have to attack him and he has longbows. OK, who cares? Elepults are more than strong enough to plow through that in sufficient numbers, which you will have because, again, he has 3 cities and you'll have more than 10 by that time. And Mansa has a "resist capitulation" rating of 0, which means that if the other conditions are met you can barely scratch him and he'll be begging for mercy.

PS - I see a barb city in the fog. Might be worth sending some units to capture that in the meantime? 3 phants should do it (barb cities are always only guarded by archery units, and 8 vs 5.25 is a 90%+ odds battle). Get a border pop there and you will probably reach landtarget with Mansa, making him liable to peacevassal once you have feudalism!

Hey @Fish Man, thanks for the feedback. The way you detailed out what Currency would do for Mansa (which isn't much) is very helpful in how to go about evaluating trades. I can see it is a clear no-brainer. I guess part of it is trying not to make a wrong move in this Shadow game and I wanted to get some advice on it before I did it.

Thanks again!

 

[OldDude]

Ok, I'll dedicate this post specifically to this topic as we really need to move past it. I will be good-naturedly harsh and blunt here . Roading that desert tile or even thinking of roads is a noob level mistake. We must break you of this now and move on to better things.

The axiom to go by is "always improve the resource first". Roads, if needed, are always secondary.

Yes, the gems will need a road as it is clearly on the desert. The worker can place road on that tile after chopping jungle/mining gems. And you know that other worker near there will move onto the forest next to it to chop. He can road that tile in only 2 turns afterwards..the 2 roads connecting the gems to the river. Voila!

This all leads back to one of the first bits of advice I ever gave you - and I'm talking about earlier shadow games you played. Worker management, especially early on, is one of the keys to success in this game and moving up levels. Yes, you will continue to learn some tricks and finesse with workers the more you play, but things like roading stuff before improving resources is definitely something that you need to move on from now.

On a secondary related note to this very issue, let's talk about those gems a bit. Besides strong food resources, of course, flat grass gems are actually one of the best tiles in the game. Granted, gems and gold commerce value decreases over the course of the game, but still getting that commerce online is quite huge at this point. Delaying it any further than needed is just not logical. Once those gems are improved, Dort will always work them. Experienced players absolutely salivate when they roll a start with gems. Flat grass gems > gold too as it is food neutral. Gold is always on a PH or Desert hill and, thus, food deficit.

Got it. Thank you.

 

[OldDude]

Overall, things look good here. Your cities look good ..good tiles and whatnot. Nothing to point out there. (ha..keep in mind that you were so worried about whipping and happiness, but you got out a fast army and cities look good)

Yeah, I was but I see now that it can be managed.

But the one major problem here is that you have NOT already gone to war. You could have sent your stack to Monty quite a few turns earlier. What is your thinking on the delay? The sooner you bring him down the sooner you move on to someone else.

It goes back I think to wanting to make sure I have enough at the start to get the job done. A little too tentative at times. I was planning on moving them out next turn.

And you lost EP sight on Mansa. Keep an eye on this. He will sometimes raise his focus on you and catch up. So just adjust as he does so. He will likely fluctuate his focus. What you can do here is raise EP slider for 1 turn to 10%. Just for one turn then remove it.

Great tip! I've never moved the EP slider.

Lastly, curious but also important, what is your target tile to move you stack when attacking Monty? (think about where the city actually is relative to his borders and your roads)

I was planning on moving them to the forested hill. I think the city is just 1SW of there, I can get there in 2t and there are defensive bonuses there.

Thank you.

 

[OldDude]

I played to 200AD. Monty capped after taking just 2 cities. I sent 3 jumbos and 1 cat up to the barb city, which will be in another turn or 2. I think I'm in decent shape here but during the war I think I didn't check my cities on 1 or 2 turns. So I have a few cities where I think I missed a whip:

Hamburg - 15t to slow grow a jumbo or a 1pop whip. I switched to an axe on this turn and I think that after 1t I can 2pop that and have the OF go into the jumbo.
Dortmund - Missed the whip on a cat there too so I switched to a barracks. Put 1t into that then 2pop it with OF going into cat.
Stuttgard - Same as Dort.
Cologone - Missed the whip by 1t. Switched to barracks to put 1t into that, then 2pop into cat.

Is this the right way to go about it?

Essen - I thought since war is over I'd finish that Library, I put that last chop into it so only 2t to finish then back to cats.

So now I'm thinking the next target might be Pacal?

Spoiler 200 AD :

Thank you.

 

[lymond]

I was planning on moving them to the forested hill. I think the city is just 1SW of there, I can get there in 2t and there are defensive bonuses there.

Thank you.

Yep, exactly. Just makin' sure. Thought you might move on road to that rice tile which would take another turn to be adjacent to the city. Route of attack can play a part in effectiveness, even more so with mounted warfare.

Hamburg - 15t to slow grow a jumbo or a 1pop whip. I switched to an axe on this turn and I think that after 1t I can 2pop that and have the OF go into the jumbo.
Dortmund - Missed the whip on a cat there too so I switched to a barracks. Put 1t into that then 2pop it with OF going into cat.
Stuttgard - Same as Dort.
Cologone - Missed the whip by 1t. Switched to barracks to put 1t into that, then 2pop into cat.

Is this the right way to go about it?

eh...not really. whipping a barracks like that isn't gonna give you much. I might whip into barracks but unlikely to whip them. Little bang for buck.

Cologne can whip an Axe or even a sword. Axe you would keep the mine and adjust the other no improved forest tiles to coast so that it get 4H this turn. Sword just leave tiles as is this turn (<10H), and whip either next turn to finish cat.

I'd also probably stop the whip in Cologe for now and let it grow back into scientists there for now. Chops there can build another cat or two. Looks like you are going to Music now anyway.

Dort - I don't see why not just slow build that cat..it is only 2 turns. no need for barracks everywhere. Likewise, I'm might let this city grow to cap and then run scientists.

Ham - let's just slow build that WE for now and let it grow..it will finish faster than 15t

Stutt - 2t cat? just finish it out.

Essen - I thought since war is over I'd finish that Library, I put that last chop into it so only 2t to finish then back to cats.

Fine, but whip another cat next turn to complete Library. (move 1f1h to 2f tile to grow this turn)

So now I'm thinking the next target might be Pacal?

Good as any. He caps pretty easy. AIs have different thresholds on capping. "know your enemy" article is good for this type of info. Combine those stacks and hit Pacal at a diagonal to Lakahma. Teo stack is healed up so can move to TLax as those units heal, but send stack out immediately when combined. Move units from Essen and any reinforcements toward Pacal as well, but don't wait for them.

All in all you have a tremendous army right now so can slow on the whip a bit for now. And you have units still coming out so you are more than solid. Essen can still whip cats but most cities can grow a bit now and just slow build units. With Music on the way you can think about some growth for the Golden Age. we can discuss that later. Grow into scientists in most cities with libraries other than improved tiles...max food in cities though if still not at happy cap.

other things:

1) pacal actually settled that iron spot, so i took that one city and Monty's cap which is a holy city. That city is going to culture press the crap out of Teo. I recommend gifting back Monty's cities next turn..not this turn as most or all of the WE's disappear. Otherwise you get diplo malus with those who hate Monty. The cities make him a stronger vassal.

2) You can direct a vassal's research. Put him on something you don't have that he can tech. Have him tech Compass ( you will find the option in the dialogue) Also gift him Writing, again next turn not this turn.

3) Dort PH mine kinda pointless. I'd be improving other silk tile and laying more cottages near Berlin

4) Warrior up NE with that stack can move to Stuff

5) Berlin - take that new cottage with scientist ..you want all cottages to grow there.

hmm..now that I think of it, you might as well switch to HR and Vassalage this turn. It's still a 2 civic for 1t anarchy deal and you are quite a bit from CS ( you can use golden age to switch civics then). But Vass will save you a little money now, and +2 XP. And HR will give cities more happy cap to grow into before golden age later.

You can finish Drama this turn at 80%. Then go Lit>Music>CS

Might as well drop eps from Pacal. You will cap him soon anyway and obviously you see what vassals are teching.

edit: revision on a couple of things. Have Berlin take that cottage SE from Ham. Ham will work Ivory and still grow this turn (well..after anarchy). Ham can take other Ivory after growth from Dort, and Dort can grow on coast tiles for now.

oh..and you are switching civics for 1t anarchy so no growth anywhere. Little thing to note is cities don't grow but cottages do. have Munich switch from fish to that plains cottage to work it the turn of anarchy, then back to fish and grow back on that cottage.

 

[jerza]

@OldDude @lymond thanks for this thread, I have been following it closely, read all the advice carefully and have already learned a lot from it

I have two questions / comments to things I have come across earlier in this thread:
- fogbusting coastal tiles: I never realized I should do that do I treat coastal tiles just like normal land tiles or do galleys spawn from a later date (or less frequently?)
- good techers: is there any value in the Know Your Enemy section that would indicate how good a techer a leader is?

thanks

 

[lymond]

@OldDude @lymond thanks for this thread, I have been following it closely, read all the advice carefully and have already learned a lot from it

I have two questions / comments to things I have come across earlier in this thread:
- fogbusting coastal tiles: I never realized I should do that do I treat coastal tiles just like normal land tiles or do galleys spawn from a later date (or less frequently?)
- good techers: is there any value in the Know Your Enemy section that would indicate how good a techer a leader is?

thanks

Hey jerza - glad to see you over in S&T

Yep, the same 5X5 fogbusting applies to sea tiles, plus just having them exposed prevents galleys. Ofc, they can still spawn in areas not covered by your busters, and coastal barb cities will sometimes build them.

I can't think of anything particular in Know Your Enemy article about how good a techer a leader is other than flavor maybe. Generally, you just basically learn who they are or others tell you. Mansa is obvious, and with some exceptions, most FIN and IMP leaders do well. Zara is usually a fine techer as well.

 

[OldDude]

eh...not really. whipping a barracks like that isn't gonna give you much. I might whip into barracks but unlikely to whip them. Little bang for buck.

Cologne can whip an Axe or even a sword. Axe you would keep the mine and adjust the other no improved forest tiles to coast so that it get 4H this turn. Sword just leave tiles as is this turn (<10H), and whip either next turn to finish cat.

I'd also probably stop the whip in Cologe for now and let it grow back into scientists there for now. Chops there can build another cat or two. Looks like you are going to Music now anyway.

Dort - I don't see why not just slow build that cat..it is only 2 turns. no need for barracks everywhere. Likewise, I'm might let this city grow to cap and then run scientists.

Ham - let's just slow build that WE for now and let it grow..it will finish faster than 15t

Stutt - 2t cat? just finish it out.

Thanks. Yeah I wasn't sure of the wisdom of that.

other things:

1) pacal actually settled that iron spot, so i took that one city and Monty's cap which is a holy city. That city is going to culture press the crap out of Teo. I recommend gifting back Monty's cities next turn..not this turn as most or all of the WE's disappear. Otherwise you get diplo malus with those who hate Monty. The cities make him a stronger vassal.

2) You can direct a vassal's research. Put him on something you don't have that he can tech. Have him tech Compass ( you will find the option in the dialogue) Also gift him Writing, again next turn not this turn.

3) Dort PH mine kinda pointless. I'd be improving other silk tile and laying more cottages near Berlin

4) Warrior up NE with that stack can move to Stuff

5) Berlin - take that new cottage with scientist ..you want all cottages to grow there.

hmm..now that I think of it, you might as well switch to HR and Vassalage this turn. It's still a 2 civic for 1t anarchy deal and you are quite a bit from CS ( you can use golden age to switch civics then). But Vass will save you a little money now, and +2 XP. And HR will give cities more happy cap to grow into before golden age later.

You can finish Drama this turn at 80%. Then go Lit>Music>CS

Might as well drop eps from Pacal. You will cap him soon anyway and obviously you see what vassals are teching.

edit: revision on a couple of things. Have Berlin take that cottage SE from Ham. Ham will work Ivory and still grow this turn (well..after anarchy). Ham can take other Ivory after growth from Dort, and Dort can grow on coast tiles for now.

oh..and you are switching civics for 1t anarchy so no growth anywhere. Little thing to note is cities don't grow but cottages do. have Munich switch from fish to that plains cottage to work it the turn of anarchy, then back to fish and grow back on that cottage.

Did all of this.

So I played to 475AD. I declared on Pacal and took that 1st city. I moved to within 1t of his cap after that and he capped to me at that point - after taking just 1 city.

I think Mansa should be next. I can move on him as soon as my troops get repositioned. He'll most likely cap after 1 city After him I'm thinking Joao.

I'm still working off whip anger in most cities and will be running into unhappy soon in some. Berlin is still looking good though. I finished Music, although I did squeeze Drama in there (only 1t) to get the discount on Music. I've got the Great Artist ready to use for the GA when I get CS and make the switch to Bureaucracy. Or should I use him now to speed up CS?

I THINK I'm in pretty decent shape, although I'm sure you'll see some finer points that I don't see. Oh...should I gift that city back to Pacal?

Spoiler 475AD :

Holding here. Thank you.