Shadow Game for an Old Dude

Yeah not running fish is a biggie. 6f resource.

I would value Ai land over jungle land for now. In terms of learning game not sure how much spamming immortals will really help you. Albeit I think Charlie would fall quickly. For forest/jungle heavy maps more workers are usually helpful. 2-3 workers in Amsterdam could chop out 6-7 immortals quickly. Albeit some cities need less work now.

I think the Dutch old capital would make a better capital long term. Grassland around your current capital has forest on it. Only 4 cottage sites so far.

Mids is a good wonder if you have stone. Settling on the stone would save a lot of worker turns.

Mids vs alpabet or calendar? You have 2 happiness resources that could use Calendar. Mids provides +3 happiness in top 5 cities if you use rep.

Could you trade for Masonry if you had Alphabet? Overall I would not expect Ai tech speed here to be great. Your city count is almost 2-4x most AI now. The game is yours to lose.
 
Ha..doubt we see much of OD tonight. Go Rams! ..cough cough
 
Ha..doubt we see much of OD tonight. Go Rams! ..cough cough
LOL! Pretty funny lymond and so true. It's funny, I've been very busy at work today so this is the first chance I've gotten to check the board. At first glance I see a ton of great info from you, kirkay, My, and Gumbolt although I haven't had the chance to read it all yet.

I REALLY appreciate all of the input everybody. And like lymond said I'll be busy tonight! Go Rams!!! :thumbsup::rockon:

Maybe after the game, depending on timing I'll get on the game for a little bit and then post an update.

Thanks again!
 
Foreign trade route, notice it's the color of Charlie and not blue (yours) anymore :)
Spoiler :


Financial stuff
Spoiler :
I kept my mouse on "unit supply", you are paying 1g/turn for some standing outside your cultural borders.
And another gold for total units amount, # of free ones increases with population (all your cities combined).

So overall, not much..Noble is generous :)
Making +17g at 0% means you could still afford a couple cities, even with not many cottages.
Mainly mentioning that so you can lose some "fear" of the slider and gold in general.

Slider example for currency, 7 turns at 100%
Spoiler :
Thanks Fippy!

Really good info, most of which I kind of knew about but didn't really pay much attention. I've been playing Civ4 too fast and haven't really learned all of the nuances but thanks to everybody here I am starting to now.
 
Great stuff from krikav and My.

krikav touched on a few major points, you did touch on a couple, but I'll add my thoughts:

1) I don't think I or anyone had yet explain this, but your cap - Persepolis - very early is responsible for at least the first couple of settlers and workers. So the cap will be whipped a bit initially. Then its responsibility is to build that Library and get up a couple of scientists to produce that first GS, which is generally used for an academy in your cap. An academy significantly increases your research and pays off all game. (cap is usually where you place it because ideally the cap will be suitable for and setup up for Bureaucracy, which greatly boosts the commerce from all the growing cottages)

-So, to point, the cap is generally the major producer of beakers for much of the game. At some point like around the time of your last save, it is time for the cap to focus on growth and let the other cities in your empire take the brunt of any whipping needs. I mean that is a major benefit of having the nicely growing empire you do have now, and still growing.

2) Again, you need a bit more focus on city micro - checking what tiles are worked and making sure cities are working best tiles. You will even get more nuanced at this as you gain experience like timing whips and adjusting tiles to max overflow. So, to point, cities like Susa and Parg are working bad tiles. Susa not working fish all this time was really bad. Parg is working two grass tiles when silk was available.

Now Parg, is an interesting example of a relatively low food/high production site. Great city for settler production, and I'd probably have it doing that and maybe more workers. With deer, copper, silk and that mined PH, and IMP trait, you have setup for pretty fast settlers.

3) Yeah - Dam grew into unhappiness, so that is another thing to be mindful of. Now growing into unhappy is not necessarily bad if you plan on actually using that citizen for a good whipping...unhappy citizen is still the same 30H whipped. On the other hand you can manage unhappy by either adjusting tiles are queuing up a worker or settler to stall growth. Right now, krikav's idea of whipping a settler is good, although you likely will replay this turnset anyway.

4) Dam is probably a good place to chop out Pyramids once stone is settled.

5) Lastly, open borders allows for those juicy foreign trade routes. My did a great job of pointing this out above. Trade routes are very important. Think of them like cottage inside your cities bringing you extra commerce. Internal trade routes are important, ofc, and what you have until you get foreign trade routes connected, which are essentially double the commerce. Trade routes commerce will grow as well as cities grow, and overseas trade routes - cities on other land masses or islands - are even more lucrative.

We have not touched on diplomacy much yet. For one, up to this point you had not met many AI and..well..one we knew would be toast. Generally rule for now is to open borders with everyone the second you get Writing. Not only does this open potential for foreign trade routes (connection from a road or coastal via Sailing) but OB over time gives a diplo boost. Otherwise, diplo is a bit of a complex concept that takes time to learn, so I'll not overwhelm you yet with that discussion. I will say that there are times that you may be judicious about who you OB with, but that is about the relations between AI and AI. (it has nothing to do with this whole scouting your empire thing)

Lastly, I do want to explain an important concept that is often confusing for players. The :commerce: icon on maps represents commerce. You get commerce :commerce: from cottages, trade routes and special resources like gold, gems,and most calendar type resources. Commerce :commerce: is not gold :gold:. That first and foremost is often a major point of confusion especially, I guess, since the commerce icon looks like a gold coin. Commerce is what directly feeds your sliders. The sliders are all about the commerce you earn. Commerce can be turned into beakers, gold, culture and espionage via the sliders. Gold is obviously earned by lowering the research slider. The more you lower the more gold you earn.

Ideally, your goal is to always be at 100% research. Obviously, you are not always in a state to do so. We've already discuss quite a bit about the whole 0% or 100% research thing so that you max gold until you can then fund a tech. So, to point, as long as you are earning gold (or rather gold per turn GPT) at 0% research you are in fine shape. As cottage grow and more worked, as trade routes or boosted, all this gets better and better - i.e., your ability to a) generate gold b) research faster. But, again, keep in mind that you always want to be running 100% research when you are able to do so.

Currency, a tech you will get in the near future, is a very important tech that does a few things that really boosts your research and gold generating power. First, it doubles your the amount of trade routes in each city - 2 trade routes instead of one. With foreign trade routes, which you will generally have before Currency is teched, this is huge. Second, it allows you to trade extra copies of resources for GPT with the AI if the gpt available. Next, it also allows you to trade old useless techs to the AI for chunks of gold - which in turn allows you to keep your slider high. Lastly, it opens the ability to build wealth in cities to turn hammers into gold, which can be really useful when cities may not have anything better to do. (Note: Alpha allows building research turning hammers into beakers)

edit: And a point on units that folks have touched on. Yeah, you can probably bring in some units inside borders. That warrior up N is good for MP in some city. You still want a couple of units hanging up N and NW to prevent barbs, since that area is unkown, but you barbs are certainly not much of an issue now. I don't even recall seeing one all game.

And building more units right now is really unnecessary unless you have plans to use them. And more units adds to unit maintenance. You don't have Alpha and Currency yet so can't build wealth or research. Some cities are still focused on Settlers or worker builds anyway. Persepolis needs to grow and has nothing really to build, other than I think the one settler it as finishing up early. Nothing wrong with starting a Barracks there as a placeholder so that it grows for now, after that settler.

And at least 1 Immortal unit might be fine to build somewhere. You can send him out scouting E into Chuck's lands, but otherwise you really don't need units right now.

With a couple of axes up there busting and protecting stone city, Scout can probably move on and actually do scouting. Move up into Hammy's land and follow his roads to scout out the map and meet the remaining unmet AIs.
Thanks again lymond. Really nice explanations.
 
Yeah not running fish is a biggie. 6f resource.

I would value Ai land over jungle land for now. In terms of learning game not sure how much spamming immortals will really help you. Albeit I think Charlie would fall quickly. For forest/jungle heavy maps more workers are usually helpful. 2-3 workers in Amsterdam could chop out 6-7 immortals quickly. Albeit some cities need less work now.

I think the Dutch old capital would make a better capital long term. Grassland around your current capital has forest on it. Only 4 cottage sites so far.

Mids is a good wonder if you have stone. Settling on the stone would save a lot of worker turns.

Mids vs alpabet or calendar? You have 2 happiness resources that could use Calendar. Mids provides +3 happiness in top 5 cities if you use rep.

Could you trade for Masonry if you had Alphabet? Overall I would not expect Ai tech speed here to be great. Your city count is almost 2-4x most AI now. The game is yours to lose.
Thanks Gumbolt! Great info. The point about settling ON the stone. I get that you get the resource right away but I heard some time in the past that you get more out of the resource if you improve it rather than settle on it. Is this true and if so what makes it go one way or the other? (settle on or off).
 
OK everybody I finally got some time to get back to this. I rolled back to 1200BC to try to improve on my past mistakes going from there to 700BC. At this save I'm at 750BC. I've got those other cities settled with a settler on his way to the stone site. I *think* I'm in better shape than the last attempt.

Cap is working on growth. Pars is working on settler, probably worker after that. Worker on his way to 2nd copper city. Open borders with the other 2 AI. I think all of the right tiles are being worked.

My scout was killed by a barb up north so I built another one who is in the NE right now. I think I'll have him scout Charles. I'm building another one in Pers to scout up north to see what Babs is up to.

I'm holding here for further feedback. Thanks again!
Spoiler 750BC :
Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG
 

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Thanks Gumbolt! Great info. The point about settling ON the stone. I get that you get the resource right away but I heard some time in the past that you get more out of the resource if you improve it rather than settle on it. Is this true and if so what makes it go one way or the other? (settle on or off).

Well... just as anything else in civ the answer is "it depends", but here is one way to think about it and calculate:

A stone on a plains hill gives you 2 hammers per turn for free. And you save 1+2+6 (is it six turns to make a quarry?) = 9 worker turns, since you don't have to improve it and road to it.
Improving the tile and working it gives your city a 6hammer tile to work, and to work that tile you lose 2 food, roughly speaking you gain 4 hammers per turn. (This is also objectable, since food is really worth much more than hammers)

So working the tile is 2 hammers better per turn, since you get 2 hammers per turn for free by settling it.
A workerturn in the early game is worth 5 hammers.
So by working the tile you break even after 23 turns, after that working the tile is better.

Things that are ommited:
Is there better tiles to work?
Are the quarry in danger of culture pressure or pillaging?
Do you need the stone RIGHT NOW to build the pyramids or can you wait for the quarry?
etc etc.
 
AI will always give you 70% :science:-value for your techs. This doesn't mean that the trade is bad for you - it's "free" tech for you anyway. I don't think you need to be very concerned about giving AI something, unless it's a key military tech. But in general, you should be trading a lot. There is no diplo penalty for not accepting their offers, so you can always decline when they pop up and return to the trade screen later. Selling techs for gold is especially good.

Ironically, it is sometimes bad to gain a tech in trade. The game has an under-the-hood mechanic which shows up in diplo dialogues as "We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced" (WFYABTA). Details here, but the short of it is that sometimes gaining too many techs in trade in too short a time can make the AIs start refusing to tech trade with you. So when you're busy researching Rifling and the AI shows up to offer you Archery as a gift, maybe you turn that trade down.
 
Yeah, settling on stone makes sense here. The whole resource thing mainly applies to food.

Okay, overall things are looking good. Pers is growing and you have cottages working...it looks just right, right now. Once Ect pops and grabs fish, Pers can take a cottage Ect was working.

Things to point out:

1) Way too much roading. Most of the roads are just a complete waste of worker turn when you have so much to do. You even completed a road to Dam which was unnecessary. Later you will have time to make roads when worker turns open up, but for now you should be improving and chopping. I mean what is that worker things NW of Dam. Road to ectabana unnecessary when you could be chopping the granary. Just think that when you are roading you are not doing something far more important.

2) Building Scouts is unnecessary, especially two them. Might as well build an IMM or two to do some scouting. At least they can kill things. Just don't do that.

3) I would move that axe near Gordium N a few tiles and one near Dam a bit NW

4) Gordium can grow to Size 2 and work FP and what should have been an improved copper, with Dam taking t corn for a while.

5) Granted they were not doing what they were supposed to and I recommend starting from an autosave maybe 2 or 3 turns earlier, but one who should have chopped that forest for Ect. The other can move toward Dam for some prechopping, as I think Mids will be chopped here once stone is online (don't finish chops until stone is online)

6) Susa, queue up LH and 2pop whip at size 4. Susa can work unimproved 1F2H tile right now..

7) Warrior up N heading home can go all the way down to Susa for MP in that city

8) my gosh..stop with the roads

9) Figured you could have had a settler out for stone already. Parg could have received a chop if worker were not roading stuff.

After stone, more cities aren't urgent, but I could see one up N above Gordum like the plains hill N of the Peak. Furs/whale at some point. Otherwise we'd need to see more fog to find more spots.

Good new, is you have 7 cities circa 800BC which is about where you want to be. Just think about how you have expanded far faster than ever before and your economy is doing good.

I recommend starting from an autosave maybe 3 turns back just to eliminate a few of the really bad roading decisions and re-open those worker turns for good things.

edit: You have a decent amount of workers, but could probably use a couple of more soon. Maybe once a city reaches happy cap it can start a worker. Pers could start one after it grows again. Dam will need more worker action soon...pre-chops and I'd like one mine there 1E of Sugar where that Axe stands - riverside mine worth it for a bit of boost to stone fueled Mid attempt.

Lastly, I never ever build scouts..

edit: I would 1pop that settler in Parg as soon as it comes available (2turns)into a new settler

edit: Lots of improvement here, but it is really about tightening things up in the early game, like all the unnecessary roading. I estimate about 15 to 20 worker turns lost simply to roads, and that is absolutely huge. 1 worker turn lost to an unneeded road is huge. It is really something I cannot emphasize enough here. It really changes your game by managing your workers more judiciously and meticulously. These are mistakes you simply cannot make as you move up difficulty.
 
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Well... just as anything else in civ the answer is "it depends", but here is one way to think about it and calculate:

A stone on a plains hill gives you 2 hammers per turn for free. And you save 1+2+6 (is it six turns to make a quarry?) = 9 worker turns, since you don't have to improve it and road to it.
Improving the tile and working it gives your city a 6hammer tile to work, and to work that tile you lose 2 food, roughly speaking you gain 4 hammers per turn. (This is also objectable, since food is really worth much more than hammers)

So working the tile is 2 hammers better per turn, since you get 2 hammers per turn for free by settling it.
A workerturn in the early game is worth 5 hammers.
So by working the tile you break even after 23 turns, after that working the tile is better.

Things that are ommited:
Is there better tiles to work?
Are the quarry in danger of culture pressure or pillaging?
Do you need the stone RIGHT NOW to build the pyramids or can you wait for the quarry?
etc etc.
Great explanation kirkay. Let me ask you, do you really do these calculations when you're playing? Do all of the great players like you guys on this board do that?

Thanks!
 
Ironically, it is sometimes bad to gain a tech in trade. The game has an under-the-hood mechanic which shows up in diplo dialogues as "We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced" (WFYABTA). Details here, but the short of it is that sometimes gaining too many techs in trade in too short a time can make the AIs start refusing to tech trade with you. So when you're busy researching Rifling and the AI shows up to offer you Archery as a gift, maybe you turn that trade down.

Very interesting. I've never run into this but it is definitely good to know.

Thanks!
 
Very interesting. I've never run into this but it is definitely good to know.

Thanks!

You'll probably 1. Never reach this limit because on noble it's absurdly high, and 2. Not even encounter it because you'll either be so far ahead of the AIs or have won by then. Still, it's good to know, and increasingly relevant when you move to higher difficulties.

Oh, and the WFYABTA limit never applies for civs which are "friendly" towards you, and civs which are your vassals (no matter how much they hate you).
 
With all the help provided here I doubt the AI will have any real techs you need except the basic ones that you skipped at the start.

Your doing a lot of reloading here to perfect your game. This will only further increase your advantage over Noble AI. I guess the important thing with this shadow game is to learn the basics. So it may not necessarily be about winning this game quickly.
 
Yeah, settling on stone makes sense here. The whole resource thing mainly applies to food.
Okay, overall things are looking good. Pers is growing and you have cottages working...it looks just right, right now. Once Ect pops and grabs fish, Pers can take a cottage Ect was working.

Things to point out:

1) Way too much roading. Most of the roads are just a complete waste of worker turn when you have so much to do. You even completed a road to Dam which was unnecessary. Later you will have time to make roads when worker turns open up, but for now you should be improving and chopping. I mean what is that worker things NW of Dam. Road to ectabana unnecessary when you could be chopping the granary. Just think that when you are roading you are not doing something far more important.
OK. I think I tend to default to building roads when I'm not sure what the worker should be doing instead. Which brings up a question in my mind...in Pers I realized that I could have been chopping but do you just want to chop no matter what you're building in the city?

2) Building Scouts is unnecessary, especially two them. Might as well build an IMM or two to do some scouting. At least they can kill things. Just don't do that.
OK. Earlier I was told building the immortals wasn't a good idea, now scouts. So if you've got no more buildings to build that you need what should you be building? For example in Pers I could build an aqueduct but I don't need it right now because it would be a waste, right?

I recommend starting from an autosave maybe 3 turns back just to eliminate a few of the really bad roading decisions and re-open those worker turns for good things.

edit: You have a decent amount of workers, but could probably use a couple of more soon. Maybe once a city reaches happy cap it can start a worker. Pers could start one after it grows again. Dam will need more worker action soon...pre-chops and I'd like one mine there 1E of Sugar where that Axe stands - riverside mine worth it for a bit of boost to stone fueled Mid attempt.

Lastly, I never ever build scouts..

edit: I would 1pop that settler in Parg as soon as it comes available (2turns)into a new settler

edit: Lots of improvement here, but it is really about tightening things up in the early game, like all the unnecessary roading. I estimate about 15 to 20 worker turns lost simply to roads, and that is absolutely huge. 1 worker turn lost to an unneeded road is huge. It is really something I cannot emphasize enough here. It really changes your game by managing your workers more judiciously and meticulously. These are mistakes you simply cannot make as you move up difficulty.
OK, here is a new save, still at 750BC. I went back to an autosave and redid a few turns, per suggestion. I have the copper city 2 just founded with a worker being built to work it. I have a settler 2 or 3 turns away from reaching the stone tile, with another worker being built for that city.

Holding for now, and sorry about your Falcons lymond.
Spoiler 750BC :
Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG
 

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  • Shadow 1 BC-0750.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Great explanation kirkay. Let me ask you, do you really do these calculations when you're playing? Do all of the great players like you guys on this board do that?

Thanks!
Pencil paper and calculator is allways beside me when i play civ4. I don't go into that depth on every single decision since with experience alot of things you just know by heart.
And most of the time I just do quick counting in my head. But I do really play rather slow, especially the first say 100 turns which can take many hours for me.

This is my way of getting enjoyment from civ4.
I don't think that all great players do this at all, allthough I would be suprised if any diety player flunked at math.
Looking at say Absolutezeros letsplay videos, I do get the feeling that he is relying less on raw calculations then say Lain.
From what I have seen/heard the player WastinTime seem to take calculations to the rather extreme in his HOF play.

Specifically reagarding that settle on stone decision, I think I would just have settled there happy that it was a good settling spot overall, and the loss of a good tile compared to the gain of saved workerturns and a city tile bonus usually end up to the "gain now is better than gain later."
 
OK. I think I tend to default to building roads when I'm not sure what the worker should be doing instead. Which brings up a question in my mind...in Pers I realized that I could have been chopping but do you just want to chop no matter what you're building in the city?

It's reasonable to fall back to roading if you are not sure that to do instead. I do that as well.
However the gain from making roads is usually very small, (1 commerce per turn if you connect a city that wasn't previously connected).
Sometimes a critical piece of road can save a turn of some movement, resulting in a settler or an army arriving a turn or two early, this can be very good.

However generalistic roadbuilding "just in case" is something you do when you genuinly have nothing better to do.
Whenever you find yourself in this situation you can think of it this way: "Oh, I'm underutilizing my workers, what can I do to open up fruitful work for them?" and usually the answer is "Settle more cities." but sometimes the answer can be "I must research 'replaceable parts' so I can build windmills." or something other that unlock more worker actions.
BW and Wheel are such examples from the very early game.

Unproductive workers is kind of a problem that arises, such as you previously noticing that your empire is growing broke. Then you want to alter your gameplay to alleviate that problem.


Once you have currency/alfa you can build wealth/research which is usually the ting to go for.
There can arise very akward situations before that, if you are running out of usefull things do build.
Could be solved by starting to build wonders that you never plan to finish, since you get one gold for each hammer you have invested in a wonder once some other player builds it.

Settler/Worker/Army is something you usually can't go wrong with.
 
It's reasonable to fall back to roading if you are not sure that to do instead. I do that as well.
However the gain from making roads is usually very small, (1 commerce per turn if you connect a city that wasn't previously connected).
Sometimes a critical piece of road can save a turn of some movement, resulting in a settler or an army arriving a turn or two early, this can be very good.

However generalistic roadbuilding "just in case" is something you do when you genuinly have nothing better to do.
Whenever you find yourself in this situation you can think of it this way: "Oh, I'm underutilizing my workers, what can I do to open up fruitful work for them?" and usually the answer is "Settle more cities." but sometimes the answer can be "I must research 'replaceable parts' so I can build windmills." or something other that unlock more worker actions.
BW and Wheel are such examples from the very early game.

Unproductive workers is kind of a problem that arises, such as you previously noticing that your empire is growing broke. Then you want to alter your gameplay to alleviate that problem.


Once you have currency/alfa you can build wealth/research which is usually the ting to go for.
There can arise very akward situations before that, if you are running out of usefull things do build.
Could be solved by starting to build wonders that you never plan to finish, since you get one gold for each hammer you have invested in a wonder once some other player builds it.

Settler/Worker/Army is something you usually can't go wrong with.

Good points. Minor nitpick: machinery not RP allows windmills. RP just makes windmills (and watermills) have +1h.

Also try to time your whips so that if you don't NEED a building or unit immediately don't whip it, lest you have nothing else useful to build after.
 
I took a look at your latest 750 BC save:

A few micromanagement suggestions for you:
-Susa should work the forested silk tile instead of the grassland river tile
-Ecbatana probably doesn't need that grassland cottage. Instead, I'd suggest either chops or more riverside cottages & mines in the capitol.
-Gordium should use Amsterdam's corn tile to grow quickly (Amsterdam will work cow + floodplain village)
-Amsterdam should spend 1 turn growing before resuming the worker so you can make use of your almost full food bank (after growth, work the sugar cottage)

As others have been saying, you would ideally be on the lookout for these improvements every turn. I might suggest you start to look whenever you think a change might be needed, for example after a new city is settled, a city grows or shrinks in population, or an improvement is finished.

But more importantly, you've gotten to the stage of the game where it's time to make a larger plan, which usually means deciding when you will attack the remaining AI. Since you are in quite a good position against the noble difficulty AI, there are many options, for example conquering with classical units (axemen or immortals), medieval units (macemen and catapults/trebuchet), or renaissance units (cuirassier). With more experience you'll learn which game situations warrant which type of attack, but for now I would reccomend choosing one, then focusing your play on reaching the required technology and building up an army as quickly as possible.
 
It's reasonable to fall back to roading if you are not sure that to do instead. I do that as well.
However the gain from making roads is usually very small, (1 commerce per turn if you connect a city that wasn't previously connected).
Sometimes a critical piece of road can save a turn of some movement, resulting in a settler or an army arriving a turn or two early, this can be very good.

However generalistic roadbuilding "just in case" is something you do when you genuinly have nothing better to do.
Whenever you find yourself in this situation you can think of it this way: "Oh, I'm underutilizing my workers, what can I do to open up fruitful work for them?" and usually the answer is "Settle more cities." but sometimes the answer can be "I must research 'replaceable parts' so I can build windmills." or something other that unlock more worker actions.
BW and Wheel are such examples from the very early game.

Unproductive workers is kind of a problem that arises, such as you previously noticing that your empire is growing broke. Then you want to alter your gameplay to alleviate that problem.


Once you have currency/alfa you can build wealth/research which is usually the ting to go for.
There can arise very akward situations before that, if you are running out of usefull things do build.
Could be solved by starting to build wonders that you never plan to finish, since you get one gold for each hammer you have invested in a wonder once some other player builds it.

Settler/Worker/Army is something you usually can't go wrong with.
Good info kirkay, thanks.
 
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