Shadow Game for an Old Dude

[krikav]

Thank you for the kind words! I'm glad I did. Already inundated with more information than I know what to do with.
Those first two Research articles were a bit over my head, (admittedly math is not really my strong suit,) but I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the concepts. I'll have a look at the other three shortly. Regardless of my aptitude, they are much appreciated.

You really can get a long way without knowing or paying attention to any of the finer details, I love math but I don't know these formulas by heart, nor have I paid much attention to them since I read the articles many years ago.

Was these things useful for you to wrap your head around the concepts?
"as I play regular games I simply look "Ok, it takes me 10 turns to reach AH, and it costs me -9 Gold per turn (GPT) to research at 100% rate. Then I need 90 gold before I start AH""
and "You have more utility in a big coffer of gold, than you have in a technology half-researched." ?

 

[krikav]

like the idea of the Noble's Club game. So the game/map is set up and whoever wants to play it starts at the same point with the same leader, etc.?​

Everyone plays the same map, but it's possible for people to play with their prefered game settings and difficulties. It can be a great learning experience for all involved.

Third, I decided to roll back to my 650BC save. I'm going to go city by city with my thoughts:
​

Wow!
You are entering the mindset of looking at the overall picture, making plans and paying attention.
This is the state where you perform good and learn most and I think Lymond and others would agree that this is the most important milestone. After this it's just minor details.
I'll try to provide some usefull feedback.

I've got a few axes standing around which I plan to use as MP in new cities. I've got a couple of immortals I'm going to send into the N/NE/NW to scout to plan new city sites.
My plan is to get out about 3 more settlers in short order to settle more sites. After the axe in Pas I'll build settler. Maybe I should build settler in Pers also after that immortal is done to stay at the happy cap for a while and maybe even whip 1 or 2 out of there. I've got 2 scientists running there and I want to keep them going though. I'm also going to need a couple more workers.

​

Not at all an unreasonable plan. However I would think abit differently seeing this situation.
I spy jungle in the north, and Charlemange and Hammurabi are now starting to get close by. You have quite abit of land now and I would not focus too much attention on settling more cities right away.
Pyramids is comming, and with that representation to get 3 happines in many cities. Representation also makes specialists even more worthwhile, but specialists are costly foodwise (costing 2 food per specialist).
This might make it difficult to run specialists and grow up to happycap at the same time.
I would right now whip as little as possible, and focus on increasing my population across the entire empire.

City by city:

Susa: 1t away from a citizen and lib. Citizen will work silk tile. City will queue up LH after lib.

Pasargadae: 2t away from axe. I was building that just for an MP. Worthwhile? Waste? It's foreign to me based on how I've always played (not very good, granted) to not have some units in each city to discourage attacks. Thinking settler next.

​

I would give the silk to Pasargadae to work instead of the plains hill, that city has a harder time to grow.

Susa I would let work a scientist, I would want to farm the riverside west of the silk. If calendar is delayed long I would want to farm that tile as well.
Yes it's a waste to have a MP in that Pasar, it has to problems at all with happines. To make you feel safer you can have a few hammers invested in a unit lying dormant in the queue, that way you can whip it instantly if a threat arises.

Ecbatana: 2t away from citizen. 73t away from lib. Worker in city chopping for lib. New citizen will work cottage shared with Pers.

Sounds good, no panic with getting that library up though and resist urge to whip. The most important role for this city is to grow the cottages (the two riverside cottages shared with capital)
Here is also one of the few situations when cottages on plains can be an idea. I dont' think it's worth it here either though, but here if anywhere. Cottages on plains are bad.

Persepolis: 5t away from citizen. Currently at happy cap. Building immortal as I see nothing else worthwhile to build. 4t away from build but also 5t from unhappiness. I'm thinking I should whip that immortal but it's only a 1 pop whip so it's probably not smart? Should I slow build it and then whip the next one to get under the happy cap? Worker in that city is building a cottage. I know there are more forests to chop but would it better to save them for something worthwhile? I was thinking after cottage (2t) I'd send him to Amsterdam to help chop Mids. Or should I abandon cottage for now and send him now?

Think I would rather build worker than immortal, but I would also want to get the food bar almost full, letting me grow the same turn I get more happiness.
Whipping here I don't advise. Definently not 1pop whip immortal that you are not sure you need.
If anything then a 2pop worker whip, but then you will have to regrow while you build something, and you have nothing worthwhile to build. Aqueduct could be an idea, with the plan to enable you to build hanging gardens for some failgold.
But probably slowbuilding worker is the way to go.
Only 1 more workerturnt o finish that cottage, might as well do it. But it's a non-riverside grassland cottage, to mature such cottages are the task for a helpercity and not the capital. And this spot is akward since no helpercity reaches it.
Sending more workers to get pyramids faster is a good idea, but I think I would chop one more forest in the capital into a new worker, as a parting gift from the worker before he goes to chop out pyramids.

Tarsus: 2t away from citizen, 51t away from granary. Worker chopping granary.

Good! And you are working the available food, good!
Probably chop another forest to finish the granary and then he can help chop for pyramids.
I think I would want a library here to help protect those floodplains from culture pressure.
I would want to farm the floodplains eventually but thats a cumbersome work at 7 workerturns and have to wait.

Amsterdam: 4t from citizen who will work sugar tile when he's out. 35t from Mids. Currently 1 worker chopping Mids with 1 coming over from Pers. After Mids is built, do I switch gov civics or should we just wait until that happens?

Work the sugar right away, don't work forests when you have 3F tiles avaible.
Amsterdam can also take the corn from Gordium.
Should switch to rep right away, but someting dramatic might happen to make you want to postpone it a turn or two.

Gordium: 5t away from citizen, 19t away from granary. Worker 2t away from getting to copper to build mine, then will chop granary.

Don't work a 1F2H tile when there is a 3F tile available. This city can also take another floodplain from Ectobana if need arises.
Here you have a wonderful oppertunity to learn some worker micro!!
Don't just move that worker straight to the copper. Let him stay one turn on the floodplain and do something productive. (But only for one turn) and then let him move to the copper. You lose nothing and you get the floodplain pre-improved for later.

Bactra: 11t from citizen, switched build from granary to monument to get border pop earlier for the specials. I realize I need IW and Calendar to improve them though, which I don't have right now. I'm not sure if I would have either one by the time those borders pop so should I go back to granary?

Not sure. Probably monument.
Need to send a worker up here to make a farm and to do some chopping. Might have to wait until after pyramids though.​

 

[lymond]

I'll be out most of the evening with stuff...and the Braves. Haven't had a chance to really look at yours and krikav's discussion. Hopefully, I can chime in late.

 

[OldDude]

Everyone plays the same map, but it's possible for people to play with their prefered game settings and difficulties. It can be a great learning experience for all involved.

So do you play the game and post your progress at intervals?

Wow!
You are entering the mindset of looking at the overall picture, making plans and paying attention.
This is the state where you perform good and learn most and I think Lymond and others would agree that this is the most important milestone. After this it's just minor details.
I'll try to provide some usefull feedback.

​

Not at all an unreasonable plan. However I would think abit differently seeing this situation.
I spy jungle in the north, and Charlemange and Hammurabi are now starting to get close by. You have quite abit of land now and I would not focus too much attention on settling more cities right away.
Pyramids is comming, and with that representation to get 3 happines in many cities. Representation also makes specialists even more worthwhile, but specialists are costly foodwise (costing 2 food per specialist).
This might make it difficult to run specialists and grow up to happycap at the same time.
I would right now whip as little as possible, and focus on increasing my population across the entire empire.

Jungle is not good to settle in? I know that improving takes longer because of the jungle so is that the reason, if so?

City by city:

​

I would give the silk to Pasargadae to work instead of the plains hill, that city has a harder time to grow.

Susa I would let work a scientist, I would want to farm the riverside west of the silk. If calendar is delayed long I would want to farm that tile as well.
Yes it's a waste to have a MP in that Pasar, it has to problems at all with happines. To make you feel safer you can have a few hammers invested in a unit lying dormant in the queue, that way you can whip it instantly if a threat arises.


Sounds good, no panic with getting that library up though and resist urge to whip. The most important role for this city is to grow the cottages (the two riverside cottages shared with capital)
Here is also one of the few situations when cottages on plains can be an idea. I dont' think it's worth it here either though, but here if anywhere. Cottages on plains are bad.


Think I would rather build worker than immortal, but I would also want to get the food bar almost full, letting me grow the same turn I get more happiness.
Whipping here I don't advise. Definently not 1pop whip immortal that you are not sure you need.
If anything then a 2pop worker whip, but then you will have to regrow while you build something, and you have nothing worthwhile to build. Aqueduct could be an idea, with the plan to enable you to build hanging gardens for some failgold.
But probably slowbuilding worker is the way to go.
Only 1 more workerturnt o finish that cottage, might as well do it. But it's a non-riverside grassland cottage, to mature such cottages are the task for a helpercity and not the capital. And this spot is akward since no helpercity reaches it.
Sending more workers to get pyramids faster is a good idea, but I think I would chop one more forest in the capital into a new worker, as a parting gift from the worker before he goes to chop out pyramids. ​

Got it.

Good! And you are working the available food, good!
Probably chop another forest to finish the granary and then he can help chop for pyramids.
I think I would want a library here to help protect those floodplains from culture pressure.
I would want to farm the floodplains eventually but thats a cumbersome work at 7 workerturns and have to wait.

I've always built cottages by default on FPs (not saying it's right), but why farm? It looks like I'll have enough food in that city.

Work the sugar right away, don't work forests when you have 3F tiles avaible.
Amsterdam can also take the corn from Gordium.
Should switch to rep right away, but someting dramatic might happen to make you want to postpone it a turn or two.

I moved a citizen to the forest for the extra hammers while building the Mids. Food always takes precedence?

Don't work a 1F2H tile when there is a 3F tile available. This city can also take another floodplain from Ectobana if need arises.
Here you have a wonderful oppertunity to learn some worker micro!!
Don't just move that worker straight to the copper. Let him stay one turn on the floodplain and do something productive. (But only for one turn) and then let him move to the copper. You lose nothing and you get the floodplain pre-improved for later.

Interesting! I'll have to remember this one.

Thanks very much kirkay!​

 

[krikav]

People do differently in NC games, some go the extra mile and write extensive writeups at regular intervalls. Many post their end results.
When alot of people join in for the fun, many fruitful discussions can take place.
Your shadowgame here is more detailed and probably give you as a person more, but the NC games are more of a collective effort.

Yes, jungle take a looong time to pay back the initial cost. You have to get IW and then spend a whopping 5 extra worker turns per tile you want to improve, and a worker turn can be closely approximated to around 5 hammers, so each tile cost you an additional 25 hammers. It's like having negative forests all over the place.
And to boot, they also give an unhealth debuff.
One really have to think twice before settling a jungle city. That being said, it's not always wrong. In your map here though, I have yet to see any convincing arguments that it would be best play.
(Interesting trivia, the civic "Serfdom" is seldom used because it's quite bad, and it competes with the two awesome civics slavery and to a lesser extent caste system. But once in a blue moon you are forced to expand into the jungle and serfdom could possible shine.)

Regarding the floodplains you should never cottage per default. It always comes down to the cities specific needs and the empires specific needs.
The crucial factor in your game right now is that you are building pyramids which enable the Representation civic.
This civic makes scientist specialists produce 6 beakers (and great people points) which is roughly equivalent with having goldmines in every city with a library (or everywhere later with caste system).
"Problem" with scientists, or specialists in general are that they need two food each.
So there is nothing like "Enough food" when one is building pyramids.

In a city of population six we can compare two food-neutral options (assuming freshly built cottages and representaiton civic)
a) Four cottaged floodplains and two scientist = 3 commerce, 12 beakers and 6 great people points.
b) Three farmed floodplains and 3 scientists = 18 beakers and 9 great people points.
Option b) wins by a large margin.


I think that food should take precedence above working forest even for building pyramids with stone. I imagine that you get more production faster if you grow the city faster.
Building with stone turns the 1F 2H forest into a 1F 4H tile. Thats a good tile but perhaps growth is still best.
Have to go into details to be sure but I think food is best.


Worker-micro is awesome. I would estimate that paying attention to worker micro is roughly equivalent to having 25%-50% more workers for free.

 

[OldDude]

People do differently in NC games, some go the extra mile and write extensive writeups at regular intervalls. Many post their end results.
When alot of people join in for the fun, many fruitful discussions can take place.
Your shadowgame here is more detailed and probably give you as a person more, but the NC games are more of a collective effort.

Yes, jungle take a looong time to pay back the initial cost. You have to get IW and then spend a whopping 5 extra worker turns per tile you want to improve, and a worker turn can be closely approximated to around 5 hammers, so each tile cost you an additional 25 hammers. It's like having negative forests all over the place.
And to boot, they also give an unhealth debuff.
One really have to think twice before settling a jungle city. That being said, it's not always wrong. In your map here though, I have yet to see any convincing arguments that it would be best play.
(Interesting trivia, the civic "Serfdom" is seldom used because it's quite bad, and it competes with the two awesome civics slavery and to a lesser extent caste system. But once in a blue moon you are forced to expand into the jungle and serfdom could possible shine.)

Regarding the floodplains you should never cottage per default. It always comes down to the cities specific needs and the empires specific needs.
The crucial factor in your game right now is that you are building pyramids which enable the Representation civic.
This civic makes scientist specialists produce 6 beakers (and great people points) which is roughly equivalent with having goldmines in every city with a library (or everywhere later with caste system).
"Problem" with scientists, or specialists in general are that they need two food each.
So there is nothing like "Enough food" when one is building pyramids.

In a city of population six we can compare two food-neutral options (assuming freshly built cottages and representaiton civic)
a) Four cottaged floodplains and two scientist = 3 commerce, 12 beakers and 6 great people points.
b) Three farmed floodplains and 3 scientists = 18 beakers and 9 great people points.
Option b) wins by a large margin.


I think that food should take precedence above working forest even for building pyramids with stone. I imagine that you get more production faster if you grow the city faster.
Building with stone turns the 1F 2H forest into a 1F 4H tile. Thats a good tile but perhaps growth is still best.
Have to go into details to be sure but I think food is best.


Worker-micro is awesome. I would estimate that paying attention to worker micro is roughly equivalent to having 25%-50% more workers for free.

Great explanation and detail, especially the comparison example. I know there is a limit to the number of specialists you can run in a city, unless you're on the Caste System civic. So is it generally a goal to run as many specialists as possible in each city or should that be determined by the resources the city has? In other words, if there isn't much extra food (if any) in a city don't bother with specialists and if there's a potential for lots of extra food in a city it's one where you'd want to set up a GP farm? Let's say you have a city with lots of floodplains tiles. Would you generally farm those so you can run more specialists as opposed to building cottages?

On a related note, slavery is a very powerful civic that (like you said) competes with caste system. Is there generally a point when you'd want to change from slavery to caste? Or is that one of those "it depends" questions? (Probably)

Which brings me to city specialization. I've read that this is what you want to do but many times I look at a city and really have a hard time identifying how it should be set up as it may have an equal amount of potential food/hammers/commerce.

Anyway, these topics popped up in my head as I was reading your post and I'm probably getting ahead of myself at this point with these questions. I haven't had much time to play this game for the past few days but I'm going to try to get in a few turns tonight. If I do, I'll post my progress.

Thanks again!

 

[lymond]

Spoiler :

I just realized that you might be a Dodgers fan

Nothing wrong with the questions at all. It's good that you are thinking of these things like city specialization. This concept takes time to get a feel for but mainly comes down to a) land b) empire needs. Generally, you consider the following basic cities:

1) Bureau Cap - cottaged focused to benefit from Bureaucracy civic (Civil Service) for major beaker boost from the bonus to commerce. If you build Oxford in a game, it will go here.
2) GP farm - High food city (at least 2 to 3 good food specials) that will be your main producer of great folks. National Epic goes here.
3) Primary unit pump - High production city with some food for growth, but good potential for hammers from hills (mines) and ideally a strong strat resource (copper, iron), though not necessary. HE goes here.

After that it is really situational. Additional commerce cities are usually located around rivers with a good bit of green river tiles and or flood plains. Sometimes you get cities with lux type resources (think gold/gems/calendar resources) that provide a lot of commerce. Secondary production cities have decent food and plenty of hammer potential. Sometimes you might tailor a specific high production potential city to focus on wonders or wonder fail gold.

With that in mind, you can start looking at your empire right now and think about the possibilities for each city. But one main thing to keep in mind is that outside those 2 or 3 specific cities, most cities are expendable. In other words those cities can be abused quite a bit for your needs....and what I mean by that is more than it sounds.

Caste System is very powerful to use at times. If you are Spiritual you can take advantage of no anarchy civic switches temporarily to make use of it. But generally, one usually uses Caste during a Golden Age. Not sure if you are aware but a Golden Age boosts great people production (GPP) but 100%. So you can use that Golden Age for a) no anarchy switch b) mass focus your empire and citizens on GPP. This plays a very important role in bulb strategies.

Flood plains are generally cottaged as you already surmised, but it also is dependent of the food needs of a city. You just have to gauge what is best compared to that city's overall growth potential.

Generally early on, if not a war or pressing need for key buildings, you try to keep scientists running in any city that has the capability. That keeps GPP going in those cities as long as possible so that you can then produce more in a Golden Age. (And keep in mind that you may often run scientists or specialists in cities to avoid happiness issues anyway..it is certainly a good reason to do so)

Yep, I'm a bit tied up at the moment but hopefully we can get the game going again soon. Regardless, the discussion is always valuable. I certainly recommend analyzing the current game based on the concepts discussed.

 

[OldDude]

Spoiler :

I just realized that you might be a Dodgers fan

Spoiler :

HaHa! Afraid so!

Nothing wrong with the questions at all. It's good that you are thinking of these things like city specialization. This concept takes time to get a feel for but mainly comes down to a) land b) empire needs. Generally, you consider the following basic cities:

1) Bureau Cap - cottaged focused to benefit from Bureaucracy civic (Civil Service) for major beaker boost from the bonus to commerce. If you build Oxford in a game, it will go here.
2) GP farm - High food city (at least 2 to 3 good food specials) that will be your main producer of great folks. National Epic goes here.
3) Primary unit pump - High production city with some food for growth, but good potential for hammers from hills (mines) and ideally a strong strat resource (copper, iron), though not necessary. HE goes here.

After that it is really situational. Additional commerce cities are usually located around rivers with a good bit of green river tiles and or flood plains. Sometimes you get cities with lux type resources (think gold/gems/calendar resources) that provide a lot of commerce. Secondary production cities have decent food and plenty of hammer potential. Sometimes you might tailor a specific high production potential city to focus on wonders or wonder fail gold.

With that in mind, you can start looking at your empire right now and think about the possibilities for each city. But one main thing to keep in mind is that outside those 2 or 3 specific cities, most cities are expendable. In other words those cities can be abused quite a bit for your needs....and what I mean by that is more than it sounds.

Caste System is very powerful to use at times. If you are Spiritual you can take advantage of no anarchy civic switches temporarily to make use of it. But generally, one usually uses Caste during a Golden Age. Not sure if you are aware but a Golden Age boosts great people production (GPP) but 100%. So you can use that Golden Age for a) no anarchy switch b) mass focus your empire and citizens on GPP. This plays a very important role in bulb strategies.

Flood plains are generally cottaged as you already surmised, but it also is dependent of the food needs of a city. You just have to gauge what is best compared to that city's overall growth potential.

Generally early on, if not a war or pressing need for key buildings, you try to keep scientists running in any city that has the capability. That keeps GPP going in those cities as long as possible so that you can then produce more in a Golden Age. (And keep in mind that you may often run scientists or specialists in cities to avoid happiness issues anyway..it is certainly a good reason to do so)

Yep, I'm a bit tied up at the moment but hopefully we can get the game going again soon. Regardless, the discussion is always valuable. I certainly recommend analyzing the current game based on the concepts discussed.

Really nice reply lymond. Hopefully I'll be able to get back to the game soon and try to implement some of this info. There is a lot!

Thanks again!

 

[OldDude]

Alright, I played a few more turns, to 550BC.

City by City:

Susa: 11t from LH. I could 2 pop that, should I? I could then start on GLH. If so, I was thinking I could take that forest tile 2N1E away from Pers to chop. Kirkay suggested I farm that tile 1W of the silk. I'm thinking mine on the green hill?

Pasargadae: 5t from barracks, 2t from citizen. Building barracks to grow city. Thinking after citizen, switching to worker or settler. Could use more food but can't build farms until CS.

Persepolis: Building worker. Worker in city chopping one tile for worker, then he will go to Dam to help chop Mids. After worker is out, probably Aqueduct to allow for some growth. Not a lot of extra food in this city, so I'm thinking maybe a farm on the plain next to the river?

Tarsus: 8t from granary which will be out in a few turns from chopping that forest tile. After that, library. Worker will go to Amsterdam to help chop Mids.

Amsterdam: Building Mids, 27t away. Kirkay suggested I work the silk tile instead of the forest for growth. Moving off the forest changes the number of turns for Mids to 46. That's a 19t difference. I'll have a citizen out in 3t. It seems I should stay on the forest. Or should I work the silk until the citizen is out and then put the new citizen on the forest? Soon I'll have 3 workers chopping Mids so I think I'll get that.

Ecbatana: Building and chopping Lib. 1t from citizen, who will work the cottage. Should I give that river cottage back to Pers and have the citizens work the cottage and FP? In looking at this city, it looks like it could either be a commerce city or GP farm. Thoughts?

Gordium: Worker building mine on copper, after which he will chop for the granary, which is 15t away. After granary, Lib. After mine and chop, cottage on FP? Lots of river tiles in this city for farms/cottages plus I'll have those bananas fairly soon so I don't think food will be an issue.

Bactra: 6t from Monument. Granary after. Thinking I should build farm where worker is standing and maybe mine on green hill 1W of city after that. I'll have dye, gems and silk after border pop and Calendar is in.

Big Picture:

Teching Currency right now and I'm thinking Calendar after that to get those specials online. I've got 3 immortals going out to scout. I'm going to send one up to the pig west of Bactra to see what's there as that might be a good city spot in that area. With that in mind, I should switch to a settler build in Pasargadae after one more growth. Rep civic after Mids is in.

It seems I'm kind of at a crossroads right now: grow, expand, or war?

Spoiler 550 BC :

 

[lymond]

Yep, whip LH and start GLH. 2 forests near Susa can be flipped to the city and used for GLH choppage, then get up some mines on those grasshills to grow into more static hammers.

Pers worker sounds fine..then I think it can still grow more. After that, Pers can just put hammers into wonders for how..not necessarily with the intent of finishing them there, but as placeholder.

Stone city will not get cottages..it gets farms...why? After farm, worker can move to start free that pig from the jungle for city there - I assume a city is coming there. Another worker can come later to help out with sugar and gems being first priority.

Calendar is fine after Currency. Just keep in mind that on higher levels you would probably setup to trade for Calendar, which AIs generally love to tech for you.

I would then head to Music via Aesthetics (Aeths, Poly, Lit, Music) for the free Great Artists, which we will use later for a Golden age.

yes, I think we still focus on growth, expansion still and then look a bit later to the golden age, bulb strategies, and setting up some kinda of war later. Hmm..is there any iron anywhere?

 

[OldDude]

Yep, whip LH and start GLH. 2 forests near Susa can be flipped to the city and used for GLH choppage, then get up some mines on those grasshills to grow into more static hammers.

Pers worker sounds fine..then I think it can still grow more. After that, Pers can just put hammers into wonders for how..not necessarily with the intent of finishing them there, but as placeholder.

Stone city will not get cottages..it gets farms...why? After farm, worker can move to start free that pig from the jungle for city there - I assume a city is coming there. Another worker can come later to help out with sugar and gems being first priority.

Calendar is fine after Currency. Just keep in mind that on higher levels you would probably setup to trade for Calendar, which AIs generally love to tech for you.

I would then head to Music via Aesthetics (Aeths, Poly, Lit, Music) for the free Great Artists, which we will use later for a Golden age.

yes, I think we still focus on growth, expansion still and then look a bit later to the golden age, bulb strategies, and setting up some kinda of war later. Hmm..is there any iron anywhere?

Thanks lymond.

I've played to 400 BC now. I've got a settler coming out next turn for the pigs up north. Mids is 12t away in Dam, but 2 workers chopping so it'll be out sooner. Capital building aqueduct, probably as a placeholder. I've sent 3 immortals up north. Lots of free land still up there.

3t from currency, after which I'll tech calendar unless I can trade for it. Charles has IW but he won't trade it, at least I couldn't get him to. I'll need it fairly soon.

Overall I think things are in pretty good shape but of course please point out anything you see I'm not seeing.

Spoiler 400 BC :

 

[lymond]

Okay..lots to say here. ..but first I want to point out something that has been happening for quite a bit in this exercise. You seem to be missing or ignoring a lot of advice. I'm not saying it is deliberate or anything, but there are some critical ideas being missed and I'm not sure why.

I'd also like to explain something rather important by what I mean by "placeholder". A "placeholder" in a city is something in lieu of a normal build, but still provides something of benefit. An Aqueduct is not or never has been a placeholder. So far you have put 12 hammers into a useless Aqueduct when instead you could have those 12H converted to beakers via building research (a placeholder) or into Wonder (with bonus resource available) for later fail gold. The wonder option is not available at the moment but building research is. And note that I have mentioned these options earlier more than once.

Also, another thing I have mentioned a few times (and posted a screenshot) is the open area up N. I'd asked to move an Axe or two up there You have a couple just sitting near Dam doing nothing. Imms are not good for slogging through jungle, and a bit dangerous too, if a barb spear shows up. You only needed 2 IMM to scout the actual AI lands. The one in Babylon area can follow roads, and another could have gone through CHarlies roads (again, that has been mentioned). YOu don't need more than that. 2 axes could spawnbust the jungle area. With that said we do know that there is an AI previously met just NE of where the NE IMM is so you should meet him. (otherwise move IMM back home) Really you probably only need one IMM doing any scouting at all and within AI lands using their roads.

(ha..hope that does not seem harsh, but there has been a bit of a disconnect here for a while, and I'd like to clean that up)

Charlie won't trade IW simply as you have nothing of value to trade for it...that is not a concern right now. (again, surprised more ais not met by now..that jungle can stall that progress)

Other items of note:

1) Ectabana - you may have chopped part of that library, but I think it should have been at least 2 popped whipped earlier...one thing to think about here is working unimproved tiles...If you see that you probably should be whipping something. Then Ect could be running some scientists....earlier

2) Ectabana - Should take one of those cottages from Pers so that Pers can work that other unworked cottage to get it growing (note: generally non-riverside cottages are not a good thing, but this is your capital so it is okay since we want as many cottages as feasible in Pers for Bureaucracy)

3) Parg - I want you to look at this city closely and tell me what tiles should be worked for that settler...(think about a) traits b) building a settler c) best tiles ?

4) Susa - continued from Parg..what tiles should this city be working

5) Bactra - tell me what that worker is thinking

6) Future Pigs spot I like 1N...gets rid of jungle tile, remains coastal, secures that copper tile from potential culture later from Babs

7) Bactra - Axe does not need to be in city..standing just 1 tile NE of city does a bit of spawnbusting

8) Susa - worker chop for GLH is good. worker can then chop silk (for Susa) and improve the riverside grasshill 1S of silk for use by Susa later for more hammers

Ok..so don't think you really need to replay here. Just clean things and tighten things up on the micro.

So I have a few questions that need answering, but otherwise you can start planning for your next few turns. You still have I think 3 AIs to meet which will open up trade ops. Trades should be discussed first.

Another note, Currency in will open up resource trades. So look to see if extra fish can be traded for available GPT. However, I would like to point out that you can just gift an extra resource earlier on to an AI to start developing diplo. Now we may just kill everyone, but I would like you to practice and understand this concept now for higher levels where diplo gets far more important. But for now, we can just wait for Currency to trade resources since you are almost there.

 

[Gumbolt]

Ditch that aqueduct. You are 6 from your health cap?

Gift HRE writing. The problem is if you don't he won't be able to trade IW. If you plan to settle the jungle you need Iron Working. If you are interested in working on diplomacy I would be gifting HRE 2-3 resources. Eventually you will get +1-2 diplo points with him. That or trading them for gold once you have currency. At some point I think HRE will declare unless you get him to pleased. Noble AI is slow but they eventually get going.

I would be running cottages in the capital over specialist. Your fish city could be running 2 scientists. You have 1-2 great cities but 3-4 very average cities. Capturing AI cities is best way to get decent cities on a map like this.

If you truly want to settle the jungle you need 2-3 more workers. Too many unimproved tiles round your cities and much jungle to cut down.

Is there a plan to win this game? Immortals and attack Hammy?

 

[krikav]

Probably my fault with the aqueduct...

Think I would rather build worker than immortal, but I would also want to get the food bar almost full, letting me grow the same turn I get more happiness.
Whipping here I don't advise. Definently not 1pop whip immortal that you are not sure you need.
If anything then a 2pop worker whip, but then you will have to regrow while you build something, and you have nothing worthwhile to build. Aqueduct could be an idea, with the plan to enable you to build hanging gardens for some failgold.
But probably slowbuilding worker is the way to go.​

 

[lymond]

Yep I figure Pers will probably build some workers at full food bar until more happiness arrives. Do not whip Pers

Keep scientists running in Pers

Yep, Hanging Gardens is generally not a good for fail gold ops because of the expensive prerequisite building. I see Dam maybe building HG after Mids, so Duct can be strategically whipped there later.

important edit:

Spoiler :

Go Rams! Go Cooper Cupp!

Die Dodgers!

 

[OldDude]

Okay..lots to say here. ..but first I want to point out something that has been happening for quite a bit in this exercise. You seem to be missing or ignoring a lot of advice. I'm not saying it is deliberate or anything, but there are some critical ideas being missed and I'm not sure why.

Well, I'm certainly not ignoring anything. I wouldn't be here asking for help and advice if I was just going to ignore it. This is the first time I've played a game like this and it is a lot of new stuff to think about and consider. If you're getting annoyed or frustrated that things are getting missed I understand that and apologize as I very much appreciate your help. But ignore? No way.

I'd also like to explain something rather important by what I mean by "placeholder". A "placeholder" in a city is something in lieu of a normal build, but still provides something of benefit. An Aqueduct is not or never has been a placeholder. So far you have put 12 hammers into a useless Aqueduct when instead you could have those 12H converted to beakers via building research (a placeholder) or into Wonder (with bonus resource available) for later fail gold. The wonder option is not available at the moment but building research is. And note that I have mentioned these options earlier more than once.

OK, I get that and can see now that doing that is not optimal. So I guess I did misunderstand the "placeholder" concept.

Also, another thing I have mentioned a few times (and posted a screenshot) is the open area up N. I'd asked to move an Axe or two up there You have a couple just sitting near Dam doing nothing. Imms are not good for slogging through jungle, and a bit dangerous too, if a barb spear shows up. You only needed 2 IMM to scout the actual AI lands. The one in Babylon area can follow roads, and another could have gone through CHarlies roads (again, that has been mentioned). YOu don't need more than that. 2 axes could spawnbust the jungle area. With that said we do know that there is an AI previously met just NE of where the NE IMM is so you should meet him. (otherwise move IMM back home) Really you probably only need one IMM doing any scouting at all and within AI lands using their roads.

Got it. Again, old habit of wanting to reveal the whole map as soon as possible.

(ha..hope that does not seem harsh, but there has been a bit of a disconnect here for a while, and I'd like to clean that up)

Charlie won't trade IW simply as you have nothing of value to trade for it...that is not a concern right now. (again, surprised more ais not met by now..that jungle can stall that progress)

Other items of note:

1) Ectabana - you may have chopped part of that library, but I think it should have been at least 2 popped whipped earlier...one thing to think about here is working unimproved tiles...If you see that you probably should be whipping something. Then Ect could be running some scientists....earlier

This point will go in my cheat sheet, along with the rest.

2) Ectabana - Should take one of those cottages from Pers so that Pers can work that other unworked cottage to get it growing (note: generally non-riverside cottages are not a good thing, but this is your capital so it is okay since we want as many cottages as feasible in Pers for Bureaucracy)

So is it better to wait for Civil Service so you can chain farms to those tiles? Something else?

3) Parg - I want you to look at this city closely and tell me what tiles should be worked for that settler...(think about a) traits b) building a settler c) best tiles ?

Hmmm...give the silk tile to Susa to work and use that citizen on the mine? Move the citizen from the deer to a grass hill for another hammer? And of course the copper.

4) Susa - continued from Parg..what tiles should this city be working

Get silk tile from Per, move citizen from sea tile to that?

5) Bactra - tell me what that worker is thinking

I mistakenly moved him there. Meant to move him to a riverside tile to build farm.

6) Future Pigs spot I like 1N...gets rid of jungle tile, remains coastal, secures that copper tile from potential culture later from Babs

7) Bactra - Axe does not need to be in city..standing just 1 tile NE of city does a bit of spawnbusting

8) Susa - worker chop for GLH is good. worker can then chop silk (for Susa) and improve the riverside grasshill 1S of silk for use by Susa later for more hammers

Ok..so don't think you really need to replay here. Just clean things and tighten things up on the micro.

Got it.

So I have a few questions that need answering, but otherwise you can start planning for your next few turns. You still have I think 3 AIs to meet which will open up trade ops. Trades should be discussed first.

Another note, Currency in will open up resource trades. So look to see if extra fish can be traded for available GPT. However, I would like to point out that you can just gift an extra resource earlier on to an AI to start developing diplo. Now we may just kill everyone, but I would like you to practice and understand this concept now for higher levels where diplo gets far more important. But for now, we can just wait for Currency to trade resources since you are almost there.

Got it. Thanks again.

 

[OldDude]

Ditch that aqueduct. You are 6 from your health cap?

Gift HRE writing. The problem is if you don't he won't be able to trade IW. If you plan to settle the jungle you need Iron Working. If you are interested in working on diplomacy I would be gifting HRE 2-3 resources. Eventually you will get +1-2 diplo points with him. That or trading them for gold once you have currency. At some point I think HRE will declare unless you get him to pleased. Noble AI is slow but they eventually get going.

I would be running cottages in the capital over specialist. Your fish city could be running 2 scientists. You have 1-2 great cities but 3-4 very average cities. Capturing AI cities is best way to get decent cities on a map like this.

If you truly want to settle the jungle you need 2-3 more workers. Too many unimproved tiles round your cities and much jungle to cut down.

Is there a plan to win this game? Immortals and attack Hammy?

Thanks for the diplo tips Gumbolt. So far we haven't really touched on that subject much.

I've been watching HRE and I think he is in early stages of planning as I've noticed a few more units being placed in his city of Vienna.

As far as a plan to win the game, I think the strategy right now is to grow and expand although Hammy does look pretty weak right now.

Thanks again!

 

[lymond]

But ignore? No way.

Ha..I did not really mean ignore, as that implies deliberate. Maybe more like selective hearing..ha...or in this case, selective eyeballs

So is it better to wait for Civil Service so you can chain farms to those tiles? Something else?

Just to make sure we are clear, the Capital you usually want cottaged. Other non-riverside tiles in other cities depends on the type of city. If a city needs more food then farms can be linked. Workshops become more powerful later game so are an option later.

Hmmm...give the silk tile to Susa to work and use that citizen on the mine? Move the citizen from the deer to a grass hill for another hammer? And of course the copper.

You are very close. Moving from the deer tile is not good though as you would start shrinking. No need to to do that. But the mine does give more hammers than the silk tile, which Susa can then use. But really what I'm trying to get you to see is a) understanding that settlers (and workers are built with hammers and food) and that Cyrus is IMperialistic (bonus to hammers on settler production - that's hammers not food) ....and ...

b) with a bit of visual aid, I suggest you start looking more at your the information the city provides you:

Spoiler listen to your cities :

You have a food and production bar...these provide useful info. Things like understanding base hammers, bonus info and overflow

Get silk tile from Per, move citizen from sea tile to that?

Yep, if Parg is using Mine for silk, then Susa might as well take back one of its best tiles (for now). I'd probably move the citizen from the forest to the silk and keep the 2F2C for now for better overall growth.

I mistakenly moved him there. Meant to move him to a riverside tile to build farm.

even experienced players do that sometimes..ha

Thanks for the diplo tips Gumbolt. So far we haven't really touched on that subject much.

Only as needed for now..trying to keep things simple. Still so basics to master and diplo is something that just takes time.

I've been watching HRE and I think he is in early stages of planning as I've noticed a few more units being placed in his city of Vienna.

Don't think there is much to worry about with Charles yet. Always try to be aware of what units the AIs have available, especially neighbors. But as Gumbo alluded to, it is good to develop some diplo practices early to foster relations. OB helps and trading resources. As mentioned, we can wait until Currency to start trading for GPT.

(Note: And yes, if trading away single copies of resources - mainly health - temporarily can be a good idea early to, if your cities are already quite healthy compared to happy cap. EXP trait is good for that)

As far as a plan to win the game, I think the strategy right now is to grow and expand although Hammy does look pretty weak right now.

Yep, again, I view this as an exercise. It's not about the winning but rather the learning. Getting you more comfortable with the extremely important early game concepts. We can get you to a certain comfortable empire and then let you run it wherever you 'd like to go

 

[OldDude]

Just to make sure we are clear, the Capital you usually want cottaged. Other non-riverside tiles in other cities depends on the type of city. If a city needs more food then farms can be linked. Workshops become more powerful later game so are an option later.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

You are very close. Moving from the deer tile is not good though as you would start shrinking. No need to to do that.

I did see that after I posted and realized it wouldn't be a good move.

But really what I'm trying to get you to see is a) understanding that settlers (and workers are built with hammers and food) and that Cyrus is IMperialistic (bonus to hammers on settler production - that's hammers not food)

I did know that but I guess never understood completely. The food that is used is converted to hammers? If so, what is the conversion rate?

But as Gumbo alluded to, it is good to develop some diplo practices early to foster relations. OB helps and trading resources. As mentioned, we can wait until Currency to start trading for GPT.

Since 400 BC I was able to trade for IW with Chuck and also gifted him fish.

OK, I've played to 300 BC now.

Those two axes are in the north now spawnbusting. The one wounded immortal is headed back to Gordium for healing.

Settler on the way to pigs site where axe is standing.

TARSUS: Just 2 popped LH. Worker building farm on FP.

PER: Just 1 popped worker. He will head north. I'm thinking settler next to take that spot north of Gordium.

PARS: Just 2 popped axe. City was 1 unhappy and I figured another axe sitting in Dam might not be a bad idea. Chuck is adding more units to Vienna.

ECTBANA: Worker will build mine on iron next turn (he was already building that mine on PH.

SUSA: Just chopped the silk tile. Worker will build mine on grass hill next. Something to point out that I don't understand. With the tiles being worked now, it is 11t from GLH. If I put that idle citizen on any other tile to work OR use him for a scientist, the turn count to GLH increases to 13, from 11. I've played around with it and I can't see why this is.

DAM & ECTBANA: Building wealth.

GORDIUM: Building library and will probably 2 pop whip that when available.

BACTRA: Building granary and might 2 pop whip that when available.

God, I hope all of this is good.

Spoiler 300 BC :

 

[OldDude]

I did know that but I guess never understood completely. The food that is used is converted to hammers? If so, what is the conversion rate?

OK, I see what it is now. It's a one to one conversion, correct?