[BTS] Shadow Game - Monarch / Ramesses

I wouldn't consider ToAR for failgold without marble, even if we are IND.

Yes, skimp meditaiton+priesthood. No need for them!

Yes, absolutely move from cottage to grassland hill to get settler 1 turn earlier!
The cost is 3C you say, but you also gain 2H right away.
You also get the city settled one turn earlier, and even the worst city still yields it's city center 2F1H.

Regarding rep scientists, I would make sure that I get the first scientists early, so whatever city is closest gets to work 2 scientists all the time to get the great person out quickly.
But other than that, I would prioritize getting cities larger, rather working 2F2C coast or cottages or whatever 2F tiles are available to get the size up.
Once closer to happycap, i would stagnate on scientists.

I would chop the forst into Pi-Ramses to get 30/60H into the granary to be able to 1pop whip the granary.
The only way you can save a workerturn on the way to the riverside, is if you step onto the roaded plains tile and make 1T of workshop/cottage there, and then move to the riverside next turn.
Thats good practice, but largely irrelevant. :) (I would pick workshop)

But the path I would choose is probably: jump onto hill -> chop -> road cow -> goto riverside and farm, thats one turn slower farm, but it gets another cow connected.

I would want to get IW before commiting any more settlers, so I don't by accident settle with iron just outside of reach, or settle on iron.
How does the tech trading and resource trading situation look?

City spots I see is 1N of wheat, 2S of wheat and NW of the clam, perhaps also on the horse to grab whale eventually.
And ofcourse something in the center for that nice river and all the forest. (Spices are nice too.)
Settling on the center spice looks nice, as that gives immediate access to the floodplain, and allows tile sharing of the rice+horse.
But perhhaps some other citys culture is about to gain floodplain?
 
I wouldn't consider ToAR for failgold without marble, even if we are IND.
Good, I had the right feeling then!
Yes, skimp meditaiton+priesthood. No need for them!
Yay! Hesha is learning.
Yes, absolutely move from cottage to grassland hill to get settler 1 turn earlier!
The cost is 3C you say, but you also gain 2H right away.
You also get the city settled one turn earlier, and even the worst city still yields it's city center 2F1H.
Cool, will do. Plus the new city will start with a whopping 4 trade routes, 1C in the town center and 2C from the clam tile, I guess that's a no-brainer, really. That's 7C minus ~3.5 maintenance. Still up 0.5C and 2h!
Regarding rep scientists, I would make sure that I get the first scientists early, so whatever city is closest gets to work 2 scientists all the time to get the great person out quickly.
But other than that, I would prioritize getting cities larger, rather working 2F2C coast or cottages or whatever 2F tiles are available to get the size up.
Once closer to happycap, i would stagnate on scientists.
Okay, just in the cap then! Thanks.
I would chop the forst into Pi-Ramses to get 30/60H into the granary to be able to 1pop whip the granary.
Cool, will do!
The only way you can save a workerturn on the way to the riverside, is if you step onto the roaded plains tile and make 1T of workshop/cottage there, and then move to the riverside next turn.
Thats good practice, but largely irrelevant. :) (I would pick workshop)
Not sure I understand what you are suggesting... ah, yes. You mean move 1W from rice, build for 1t there on workshop, then move the next turn?
But the path I would choose is probably: jump onto hill -> chop -> road cow -> goto riverside and farm, thats one turn slower farm, but it gets another cow connected.
That cow is already roaded (stupidly, I know).
I would want to get IW before commiting any more settlers, so I don't by accident settle with iron just outside of reach, or settle on iron.
How does the tech trading and resource trading situation look?
No worries here, that's the play I had made with Ly. As soon as I can trade for MC, that same turn I will also trade for IW with Sal. So I traded Maths + Curr for MC+30 gold with Mansa, Math for IW with Sal and gift JC that precious writing. The resources front is not as happy, however. Mansa doesn't want to give me Ivory for cows and I don't think I want to give him two resources for it - unless I'm supposed to build the Statue of Zeus, bit somehow I doubt that. Would be an option for failgold, I guess?
City spots I see is 1N of wheat, 2S of wheat and NW of the clam, perhaps also on the horse to grab whale eventually.
*lol* That's exactly the spots Ly marked on my map!!! I guess there are some things you guys do agree on :D
And ofcourse something in the center for that nice river and all the forest. (Spices are nice too.)
Settling on the center spice looks nice, as that gives immediate access to the floodplain, and allows tile sharing of the rice+horse.
But perhhaps some other citys culture is about to gain floodplain?
Ly has suggested the tile NW of the grassland spices. That woodless grassland to the W of that is iron, btw. The only iron on the island. What will I build in the capital once the settler is done? Another failgold wonder?
 
Yes, that is the worker path I mention, 1W of rice, workshop for one turn. :)

If iron is there, lymonds spot is nice, or you could go right on the grassland spice, that way you can still reach floodplain+rice which can be really nice. That city will grow so slowly if not.
Abit of a tossup though, as that would leave the iron in second ring culture, and 2F4H is a insanly good tile.

If capital is still preoccupied with getting the first GPerson out, then it can start a new worker/settler, as it won't grow much while running specialists anyway.

You can set your slider to 0%, and check how many gpt mansa wants in addition, if you put up ivory for cows.
 
You didn't say anything about Aesthetics, good choice?

mansa wants Cow and 11 gpt for his ivory.
 
I'm not sure about Aestethics tbh... GLib is really good with pyramids and rep, and you are IND, so it might be reasonable.
But then again... CoL is also really nice with rep.

I think I would go priesthood->CoL.

Edit:
Don't pay 11gpt. :) 1 or 2 gpt would have been ok, but not 11.
 
I'm not sure about Aestethics tbh... GLib is really good with pyramids and rep, and you are IND, so it might be reasonable.
But then again... CoL is also really nice with rep.

I think I would go priesthood->CoL.

Edit:
Don't pay 11gpt. :) 1 or 2 gpt would have been ok, but not 11.
I wouldn't have paid that ^^

Why do I want CoL? Not saying I don't want it, just want to know your reasoning.
 
CoL enables caste-system, a civic that allows you to run unlimited ammounts of merchants, scientists and artists.
It enables cities to become productive much sooner, borderpops are super easy, just run an artist for 3 turns.
No need for costly investments of libraries to start running scientists, just grow to desired size and hire specialists. ;)

With representation specialists get +3 beakers, so more or less what happends with rep+caste system, is that there is an infinite amount of invisible goldmines everywhere!
 
Okay. Just so I understand: The GLib is really good, too - right? Since the GLib is something that I only can get if I get there fast, while CoL is something I will get eventually regardless... wouldn't it make more sense to go for the GLib first and then pick up CoL? Also, why Priesthood? I can research CoL directly and Priesthood doesn't have the little note saying it will make CoL cheaper - does it? (EDIT: Sorry, my bad! It does make it cheaper. But does that warrant wasting a turn on it? I'm pretty sure CoL will take 4 turns to research regardless, right?) [EDIT-EDIT: Mea culpa. I should really just try these things out before I open my mouth. It did shave a full turn off CoL. So yeah... thanks for the advice! Speaking of which, how does OF with research work? Do you lose any beakers?
 
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Also: Is it the right thing to use the grassland hill mine in Memphis now that I'm working on the Forge? It's a difference of 7 vs 10 turns and the next growth will take place within 2 turns regardless.
 
Sorry, I have been thinking about that whole CoL thing a little bit more now. You're the expert, so this is just my musings, but who knows, maybe I'm on to something...

If I research CoL now, the only thing I really want to do with it is adopt Caste System. I don't care much for founding confucianism. But CS will take away slavery and whipping. Plus, I have no city at the moment, where I would like to employ more scientists and cannot do so anyways because of Library. Cap would be stunted with more than 2 scientists, Memphis can have 2 scientists already, all other cities are too small to run scientists... wouldn't it be more prudent in that case to go for Aesthetics/Literature first and get CoL when I have enough population overall to actually adopt CS and don't want to use whipping anymore? Hope that makes sense!
 
You lose no beakers when it comes to overflow.
There are some niche tricks to do with beaker overflow under very special occasions.
Such as when you play iso, and you have reached optics and have your caravels moving, waiting to meet the AIs and do trades, you sometimes want to research but have nothing you want to put beakers into.

Then you can throw 100% research into hunting, roll over that into archery, perhaps also through myst if you don't allready have it... Then you meet the AIs, trade for math and finish calendar in one turn... Or something. :)

Grassland hill sounds sensible, good thinking!

CoL/Aestethics, no big deal imho. :)
Go with what you think is fun.

Slavery/Caste system you can swap as much as you like, you are SPI.
With SPI you should probably update civics every 5 turns anyway. :)
 
Should I prioritise forges and/or market places in any of my cities at this point? Also, if I plan to build the GLib in Thebes, should I build a forge there next instead of another settler?
 
You should not build any market at all, in any city!

Forges are always nice buildings to have, and with IND they are affordable too, you can build them almost everywhere, don't whip though, you want to get cities up in size now and work alot of tiles.
 
You should not build any market at all, in any city!

Forges are always nice buildings to have, and with IND they are affordable too, you can build them almost everywhere, don't whip though, you want to get cities up in size now and work alot of tiles.
Dammit! I just whipped the forge in Memphis! *will I ever get the hang of this*
 
Hmmm. That half-finished the Colossus with OF, I think I can live with that, tbh... I think having the colossus 3-5 turns sooner makes up for the 2 lost pop working 2F2C tiles...

Say, would it make sense to trade Aesthetics for Code of Law with Mansa? He will probably want about 100 gold for it on top of Aesthetics...
 
So, another business trip, but I should be back around this time tomorrow... before I go, another update of my progress so far. I've played a couple of turns, if you feel I totally messed things up, I can go back, of course.

Turn 95:
Spoiler :
I0mYipN.png

So, a brief view of what happened since my last update:
Memphis: I 2 pop whipped the forge when it had 5t left to build. Then 2 pop whipped the Colossus last turn (or 550 BC, not sure) - turned out, if I hadn't (or hadn't whipped the forge before that), it would have been built the this turn by some AI! I guess when you trade for MC, it's well possible someone else has had it for a while. And Mansa had copper as well, so good thing I whipped, even though generally speaking I shouldn't have... I guess? Now I'm building Moai for failgold, as my expansion is beginnung to get quite costly.
Thebes: chopped into settler, then into forge, just finished it and started GLib working the top 3 tiles and 2 scientists, I guess I might put them to work elsewhere when the GS has spawned?
Alexandria: Whipped a WB for Byblos, built a farm, nothing else of interest.
Pi-Ramesses: Chopped into Granary, nothing else of note.
Elephantine: Built Granary, now working on Aquaeduct. Not sure if I should chop into Aquaeduct or wait until HG is in the make? Guess it makes little difference.
Giza: Just founded it.

Global news: Traded Aesthetics and 115 gold for CoL with Mansa - probably not a good idea. Seems expensive and also Justinian now hates me for doing this... what do you think?

Next research? Maybe Calendar?

Where should I build the next settler?
 

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ha...krikav and I agree a lot

But actually I do like a well timed forge whip in Memphis for Colossus..you can get good OF into it and that OF is then boosted by the forge itself. Tricky thing is timing a 2 pop forge whip with IND due to the bonus. Seems you did that ok.

If I recall, you may have earlier teched CoL and received the religion. Not a big deal though. But yes CoL will provide caste system which you can switch into for a spell if whipping is not needed in short term (great benefit of Spiritual trait). krikav mentioned PH first as it is a predecessor tech that gives a small bonus. I think we talked about that before.

Keep eye on tech trade comparisons - even getting a little gold for something someone is close to finishing is nice. Surprised Justy does not have Writing. You could gift it to him now for fair trade bonus, or wait next turn to see if you get some gold.

YEP...JC is very close on Maths. Check that in the dialogue so you see what I mean, then just trade it for his 20g.

I'd say there are two ways you could go on tech here:

1) Civil Service is an important tech as it will enable Bureaucracy for Thebes. Bonus to commerce and hammers in cap. Thebes doesn't have cottages though, but it does have the extra trade routes, and the extra hammers are nice. Most times you will setup a good Bureau cap. The extra hammers will help with TGL.

---CS allows for chain irrigation too

2) Music is nice for the free Great Artist which you can use for an early Golden Age which has some great benefits that we can discuss soon.

Maybe you get both anyway, so I would go CS right now. Calendar can easily be traded for later.

Your economy is fantastic.

You should start seeing Mansa's tech next turn. (check espionage screen to see why)
 
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Okay..some turn micro:

Helio should switch mine to coast this turn to max growth

Pi can work coastal tile and still grow in 2 turns

I'd actually have Memphis put those hammers into Chitzen Itza. Maoi is fine too but you have time on that, and itza is a great wonder, so another AI like mansa may build it sooner than later.

Elie takes 2F forest from Giza since Giza has its own 2F1H tile. Make sure you micro these things to work best tiles, even unimproved tiles.

There is a dark spot near the iron in the center that is a danger for a barb spot...you can move warrior 1SW out of Helio to bust ..just leave him there for now until we get that covered.

You can cancel cow with JC and trade it for corn. keep an eye on him getting gpt and then you can trade clam for gpt

Ivory requires more than 1 resource to get as it is higher value...I'm more than fine right now trading a cow and a fish or sheep for it

Worker mining the PH near Thebes is a waste

edit: actually I don't see a need to whip in next five turns..so do this

Whip Lib in Helio now...then switch to caste.

Run an artist in Pi for border pop.

Move Worker from Thebes PH to forest.1NE of rice...this can be chopped when border pops and then serve as chain irrigation source for the rice with a farm after CS

edit: we have options on new settlers now. Helio can start a new one after Lib whip. I want Memphis to grow some but it can build one. Gize maybe could chop one after wheat is improved. (wheat will be even stronger automatically after CS)
 
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You know..It's just dawning on me that I feel we are a bit low on workers...and that is my fault. We've done really well here in managing them so far, but the ratio of workers to cities is quite bad.

I think I like taking those hammers in Memphis for a new worker. So I would build worker this turn, then Itza next turn to grow to 4, then finish worker..don't whip it.

We can look to get more workers later, but I like getting another one so the others can focus on the Western Cities, but we have a guy near home to work stuff. Still not sure on cottages or farms for Thebes. I'm thinking farms after CS since we can chain irrigate from the tile 1E of Thebes to the grass tiles.

cottages would be okay, but a heck of a long time to develop at this point for Thebes and Ram is not fine.

On the other hand, farms would allow Thebes to focus on growth. This has the side benefit of boosting trade routes commerce, as city size is a factor. So once Thebes hits certain size thresholds its trade routes will blossom, and that commerce is boosted by Bureaucracy. Of course, Thebes would also be able to run more specialists later too.

I might start a worker in Elie actually as well and use that chop for it next turn. I'd just really like to get more workers here. There is stuff to do.
 
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GLH, colossus and pyramids... :D
This sure is Ramesses we are playing. ;)

No need at all for anything more economywise.
All prio on growth.

Cottages looks very weak right now.
4 workerturns into a cottage, then 10 turns of working it to get it up to 2F2C, and then another 20turns to get it up to 2F3C, which lighthouse powered coast coast is yielding right away.
At 5hammers per workerturn, we are paying 20 hammers and then 10*2 + 20*1 = 40C upfront investment for a village.

Aqueduct in stone city, noooooo!
 
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