[BTS] Shadow Game: Monarch w/ Charlemagne

[MrBungler]

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TURNS 6-9
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Spoiler T6 - nothing SE but Aachen expanding reveals wheat :

Spoiler T7 - fish and spice far south :

Spoiler T9 - no seafood west :

2nd city spot seems found, or? I'm thinking 1SE of pigs. Thoughts?

Open questions:
1.what to do with scout?
2.what to research after AH? (mining almost certainly)
3. what to build after worker? (thinking warriors to fog bust as Aachen approaches happy cap?)

 

[Peteyboy]

Q1 - I would be keen to establish what is N/E of the sugar, will allow you to better plan the future settles - ideally locate your nearest neighbour (don't go too far)
Q2 - Correct Mining is a no-brainer, leads to BW and gems (with TW) will provide happiness.
Q3 - I'd probably go workboat over warrior (both can work) - But either way get to Pop 2. But the WB allows quicker growth with the clams, warrior can come at a slightly later point (Too early for barbs to be an issue) when you need to grow your pop.

The wheat does strengthen 1SE of pigs, but depending on what is NE, I still think 2E of pigs is better - as I've learnt recently, it's sharing that's the key. I think a future city 1SW of pigs could be another city (not immediate - want to secure land) but will have the coastal benefits + decent food if shared well.

 

[MrBungler]

establish what is N/E of the sugar

I'm also curious what is N; NE and E look like dense jungle, but who knows

I'd probably go workboat

that's interesting, I wasn't considering spending research time on fishing, but you're thinking worth it for the extra growth?

2E of pigs is better

I don't see the improvement, but I wasn't considering sharing this space between 2 cities either. Thanks for the idea, I'll think about it

 

[Peteyboy]

I wasn't considering spending research time on fishing

Sorry - that's what happens when I look at screens and don't load the game! (I also couldn't get it to load) Agreed, not worth fishing at this point. Possibly get after BW (Depending on timing of pop growth (That or Agr) (both discount Pottery too.)

Until further advice can be given, really need to see what's N/NE, to determine best city locations (and research) - Always awkward when you need Agr (or fish) & TW before pottery.

I feel 1SE of pigs, is where I would have settled a month or so ago, but I've learnt from some of the Deity Players here since and the sharing and development of cottages is important. (Albeit you can get away with slightly sub-standard strategy with Monarch.) I'm sure you're trying to optimise strategy.

 

[MrBungler]

(I also couldn't get it to load

My fault i setup the game wrong, but lymond told me how to fix that for future games

I'll keep poking N, see what's there.

I'm sure you're trying to optimise strategy.

yes indeed! Me not understanding a strategy is a pointer to my ignorance, not a fault in the strategy. Also, good job on your improvement!

 

[MrBungler]

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TURNS 9-14
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AH researched, started Mining

Spoiler T9 - wet corn NE of 1st city, revealed by border expansion :

Spoiler T14 - survived a lion and found gold :

worker completes in 2 turns, mining in 6

Scout needs healing probably?

 

[Peteyboy]

This is a generous start, in that you are in close proximity to 2 sources of happiness (which are easy to develop) handy when trying to utilise potential 3 pop whips (Pop 6) later.

For me still got to be BW next, but almost certainly than Agr. One challenge with Charlie is the slowness of getting to useable cottages - with that in mind (and unless it becomes clear you have a rival very close to your east) - I'd probably be looking to settle next using the wet corn (by which time you'll have Agr) revealing what else is in that proximity might determine exact spot (but with myst, possibly 1W of corn (gold pops after chopping/building a monument) - then move to previous suggested settle.

Re Scout - Yes needs healing - if 0.7+ I'd probably heal there, if much less, I might move SW (with a view of going NW once healed) and heal - whilst you'd be unlucky you're close enough to jungle to attract panthers, which could rumble you.

 

[Fippy]

Fishing before mining imo..Aachen will have some good hammers with Pigs + cows for a workboat.
Warriors are needed on higher levels vs. barbs, on Monarch getting more early should be better.

 

[Peteyboy]

Fippy, your point is sound (as ever) - A shadow game at Monarch level is slightly unusual - Certainly assumptions that can be made at higher levels (I.E what techs the AI will have by a certain time) aren't always reliable, and you will often gain tech superiority, much earlier, which presents a different (albeit, easier) challenge. I've tended to lean more towards what I've learnt recently for higher levels and translated it down for Monarch, figuring most principles remain sound.

Not sure at the top levels I'd want to spend the early turns getting fishing, losing time for settlers/workers (let alone barbs.)

 

[Fippy]

I don't think fishing loses time for settlers & workers (even on deity) with double gems
But fogbusting might be more important there, yup.

 

[MrBungler]

Fishing before mining imo

i follow you, sounds good - barbs coming later on Monarch (~T40?) means fog-busting warriors can be delayed for more

Peteyboy, lots of good advice and points to think about, thanks what's your thoughts on the 0.7 health threshold?

 

[MrBungler]

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TURNS 14-19
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switched research to fishing ala Fippy; letting scout heal in place

Spoiler T15 - a Lincoln appears from the north :

Spoiler T17 - elephants and more gold, stabling cows :

Spoiler T18 - more gold and... Egyptians, or? :

Spoiler T19 - Hello, neighbor! :

building warrior until Fishing is done next turn, then switching to workboat, then warriors again until settler.

Question: how big to let Aachen grow before switching to settler?

 

[Peteyboy]

Some interesting discoveries there

First off - Yes, keep bar going until WB, whilst finishing Mining.
Then I'd probably go to Size 3 (utilising Pigs and Clams) by which point BW will be on it's way, then I'd start land grabbing.

A few choices, but all revolve round corn - Still 1W of corn is very solid, good for sharing and will get 2 mines*) - Or 1N (incorporates Ivory - not so optimal for sharing, but lots of easy improvements for workers) - Probably edges it for me. The * repesents that AI (or you) could build another city 3 tiles above 1W. Going any more north risks culture influence and loses benefit.

After Settler, probably worker, Settler, worker (Possibly w,w,s) - combination of chopping (especially in city 2) and whipping.

 

[Nick723]

Spoiler T17 - elephants and more gold, stabling cows :

Was it a conscious choice to do cows before pigs? Normally you should go for higher food first

 

[Fippy]

Workboat balance out the situation a bit, but yup as Nick says..usually high tiles first.
Here i would be interested in how cows first compares thou, they are done 2 turns faster and significantly speed up clams.
Clams + cows = pigs food (no other 3 bfc tile). While pigs seems obvious at first, i am not so sure in this special situation.

 

[lymond]

My thought as well. Does the fact that cows can be improved immediately - 4 turns, beat the 2-move trek to the pigs.

 

[Nick723]

Workboat balance out the situation a bit, but yup as Nick says..usually high tiles first.
Here i would be interested in how cows first compares thou, they are done 2 turns faster and significantly speed up clams.
Clams + cows = pigs food (no other 3 bfc tile). While pigs seems obvious at first, i am not so sure in this special situation.

Yes indeed - that’s why I asked if a conscious choice

Tried to work it out in my head and gave up!

 

[MrBungler]

Was it a conscious choice to do cows before pigs?

Unfortunately no, never considered pigs first I've got a convenient save, I'll run the counterfactual starting with pigs, see the difference.

:edit: cows first wins by a turn, with Aachen growing to size 3 then producing a settler on turn 36; pigs first, 37

 

[MrBungler]

Spoiler T29 :

researched Fishing, Mining, one turn of Bronze Working then just switched to Agriculture, will finish in 7 turns, as will settler
stabled pigs, fishing the clams, planning to mine one gem before sending worker with settler
Aachen:

overview:

notice horses W of Aachen

 

[danjuno]

You could settle between the Plains Gold to get all three golds and the Corn in the radius. Whether it's advisable to settle in Shaka's face like that is a different kettle of fish.