Shadow game

[krikav]

The grassland hill vs camp is either right or wrong.
Mining the grassland hill is equal to buying one hammer early, and paying 10-20 commerce for that hammer over a longer period.
It's a very high price, but if the lone hammer makes the settler come out quicker, it might well be worth it.

I would go for the corn, thats the safe play, planting a city further north might block off Pacal, but then maybe Zara or Hanni will gobble up that corn.

IF you go for the floodplain area, I wouldn't settle in the forest as you mention, I would plant where the scout is I think.
Yeah, it kills a floodplain, but it gets two forest in first ring and it has enough floodplains anyway.
It also has some hills which can be helpful for a early attack.

Might go for another settler right after the first one, planting there and farming one floodplain those two cities share.
But exacly where to place such a city (if at all possible) will be easier to tell later on.
From what is still visible, I would go NE of the corn, on that hill.

 

[5tephen]

Spoiler Long turn set :

Hope I haven't overdone it but all the way to T42.

Mr Trotsky - Zara was a workboat from the East.

Pacal took the floodplain area which as per advice doesn't seem like the worst outcome at all. Think he must have listened to Krikav as he settled on my scout!

Settler and road plan worked out. In hindsight no competing settler was near so perhaps should have improved ivory rather than mine. Settled Vienne turn 37, started working on a monument for want of anything better - it will eventually help with happiness cap and after scout ran around in a bit more of a care free manner, it's evident that I don't need more warriors yet - will slowly get out another couple at some point for miltary police but no rush on that front.

Worker has improved corn with a view that I will put 6T into a worker and then whip Vienne to completion.

Capital has gone straight to another 10T settler which is nearing completion.

Research was BW after TW and I've gone fishing as discounts pottery which is my next tech and is useful for some of the lakes and the clam.

My next decision is whether to settle SE of copper - it's quite a good tile, would enable a few axes, I could share the corn for whipping power and longer term it would secure the 3 dyes which would be good. On the minus side, aside from the copper it doesn't unlock any new tiles for now and will definitely get border tension with Zara. I think I should do it any way, then get one more settler out straight away in the capital for the rice spot and hold at (hopefully) 4 cities for a construction attack.

How does the plan sound? Can replay a few turns if my decision making has been bad.

Spoiler :

 

[krikav]

I think I would whip the monument, put overflow into worker then grow to pop2 and 1pop the worker too.
Monument is good against Pacal as he will throw up a monument in no time in that city, stealing your floodplains.
Also, culture on that western peak will give you awesome visibility!

I'm not overly fond about the jungle city... but securing copper would be really nice and that spot you suggested does look like the only sensible one right now.
That city would benefit from monument in Vienne too, since it needs some more tiles to function.

I think I would have gone worker instead of another settler and started chopping. But maybe saving forests for elepult is good.
Worker is also needed to connect rice for the jungle citys health, and a road to Holy Prague.

Western worker now should perhaps road toward copper city?
If you road corn+ tile 1W of corn+copper, settler reaches location in 2 moves and you connect everything. A road on the tile1W of corn also reduces chance of jungle growth there.
Should likely be a cottage there eventually so copper city has another 2F tile while growing from 2->4.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

What about 1S of the stone? Would a monument be enough to hold the first ring against Charlie's holy city culture? If so, you get a couple of forests to get you towards a granary and the monument. Not amazing but with a FP farm and grassland farm or 2 you could whip a few units. The stone is not a bad tile and you'll be going masonry for construction at some point when it'll still have some relevance.

The copper city doesn't look like it could contribute much apart from allowing you to build axes and gallic warriors (I think they build with copper). Perhaps that's enough to justify it though? Doesn't produce much but contributes indirectly to production by allowing you to build fewer elephants; they are for stack defence only with cheaper melee acting as mop up.

 

[5tephen]

I've replayed 6 turns from where I started building the settler following Krikav's advice to go worker instead. This feels much better than my approach. Now I have the flexibility to chop that monument in Vienne so it can still begin another worker soon.

I am uncertain what the best way to use my workers is here though. We've talked about roading to Charlie for his religion to spread and a road on the PH and another NE of that would carry additional benefit of speeding up settlement of either the stone site or the rice site.

The western worker will finish corn this turn and I think should chop the monument - the capital worker would get the monument out 1T faster if it did the chopping but I think it should be doing a task around the capital.

The sooner I improve the ivory, I would be gaining commerce per turn vs working that grassland mine that seems like an increasingly painful decision to have gone for in the first place. However, now that the grassland mine was done, I think the commerce alone from the ivory probably doesn't justify improving it as any kind of priority? If prioritising a commerce improvement, I'd get more commerce using the worker to build a cottage on the floodplain north of Vienne. Chopping early game always seems good - I could shave time off the next settler by putting a chop into it.

Tentative plan for capital worker - chop forest S of capital. Road PH and NE of PH to connect to Charlie. Use the settler to get the rice spot and bring worker back to chop out monument there putting half turns into farms if that works out.

City sites, none feel particularly safe from enemy expansion. I think the rice is the highest value out of 3 average spots. Certainly having an AI city settled next to it would be a massive pain this close to my capital's borders. I think this should be the next city.

Getting axes via the copper spot probably would help overall but I begin to like the argument for the stone spot more. Could be that neither spot is still available by the time I'm ready.

Tech path I am also uncertain. I think writing makes sense after pottery for trade routes and diplo - probably a library in capital is worth it. After that, masonry, straight to construction would get catapults out ASAP. Going AH -> HBR earlier would enable stables which might help if I don't have copper but would significantly slow down production of my army as couldn't start producing elephants or catapults until both construction and HBR were done so probably best overall to wait for HBR until after construction? A lighthouse in rice city would improve whipping potential quite a bit in that city (clams and lake alone would be 6) but sailing seems far too costly a detour until after construction and HBR?

Spoiler T42 replay screenshot :

Edit:
In terms of generalised learning I can take from replaying the last few turns - having secured a strategy (elepults) I placed too much emphasis on grabbing marginal cities and should consider in future whether I might prioritise workers and infrastructure more highly earlier.

 

[Nick723]

Is there an argument for not going elephants at all, and just going with Gallic warriors? Seeing the copper I would consider it. It would allow you to go earlier for sure.

vs Pacal who no doubt has a lot of Holkans, it’s not clear to me if elephants will be better than Gallic warriors. And you can get three Gallic warriors for two elephants, which I think swings the tide further in that direction.

 

[krikav]

I like that better, more harmony between workers&cities now.

I don't think I would chop anything in second city yet.
Corn worker is awkwardly positioned so I would probably road corn and then move back and improve ivory with that worker, if you want to expand to copper after that he can go back to the jungle tile1E of copper. Or after that chop a forst into a granary.
Cha+ivory+gems make for a very comfortable happycap, so I would use that to do multiple 1pop whips.
Grow to almost pop2 with corn+floodplain->whip monument, overflow into worker. Then grow to almost pop2 again and whip worker.
Somewhere then,being close to 1popping a granary (likely with chop assist) is likely.

Capitals worker I would road to Charly now. Would be such a windfall to get Buddhism and getting him to pleased. He does build a fair amount of units (6/10). Have he revolted yet? Boasting about archers/chariots or axes/spears?
T50 culture will put you very close to being a land target with him, and with clams spot you will be for sure (can't remember if it was 7 or 8 tiles and exacly what tiles count...)

After road to charly, perhaps farming the tile 1N of rice? Would make growth from pop3->pop4 take 5 turns instead of 6. Farms are always useful.
But sure, you can't go wrong with chopping either, anything you chop is useful here, but the forest you chop can't be used for a burst of production with construction, so I think we have to be a bit selective.
The 3 forest around the lake and the grassland hill in second city I see as fair game since we need those tiles (farms+mine). The plains forests along the river I would keep, and if I would chop any of them I would take the one 2E of Vienne to maximize chances for more growth.

Hard to figure out what the most efficient road network would be. I want to road the lake.
Roading the PH seems sensible, but long term and with consideration to how units will flow from clam city etc, maybe roading more of the green is sensible, will make cottaging easier later too, so don't know.

 

[krikav]

Is there an argument for not going elephants at all, and just going with Gallic warriors? Seeing the copper I would consider it. It would allow you to go earlier for sure.
vs Pacal who no doubt has a lot of Holkans, it’s not clear to me if elephants will be better than Gallic warriors. And you can get three Gallic warriors for two elephants, which I think swings the tide further in that direction.

Good point. There is little merit to HBR (no point teching AH so we don't know if we have horses). Well... maybe for trading value then.
An construction attack should likely start with catapults+gallics and some other units.
Elephants can join later.
The main point with elepult is that you have lasting punch in the attack. Once you start rolling you can just continue to press on even if longbows/xbows/maces start to show up, just because they have so high base strength.

 

[5tephen]

OK. I'm going to follow the plan of whipping monument, worker, granary in corn city and road to Charlie.

Charlie boasts about chariots and is not in slavery.

I like the farm 1N of rice plan - feels like farms > cottages on the whole this game. Maybe if we road the lake we'll finally find that whale?

I'm doing a 10T settler in capital, followed by one more probably. Aiming to get rice city next and then copper city, then stop putting down cities. It's not improbable that I lose one/both sites. Having made a plan to use copper I'm not sure if delaying on that site is good but can always fall back on more elephants and aside from securing copper it's not going to be hugely productive.

Pottery, writing, maths, masonry, construction. Hopefully trade for IW along the way so I can build gallic warriors.

 

[5tephen]

Spoiler T51 update :

Zara converts to Buddhism T43 - looking even better to get Buddhism from Charlie... Road completed T46.

Pottery in T48 and Charlie's moving a settler to my rice spot. 1 pop whip and try and road to the rice site in case Charlie is going south enough to buy me some time but he settles T49 and my settler will grab the copper now before I lose that too. Looks like the stone city is still a possibility but having 1 pop whipped the capital I'm not in a good position to get another settler out anytime soon - I will put a chop into capital granary next and some natural hammers and grow capital to size 4 - if stone site is still free I could chop whip a settler. One other possibility is cheekily taking the barb city in the west with some axes - maybe that would be better than another settler that's high risk for being wasted on another lost site as even if the barb city gets taken by AI, the axes would still be useful?

Spoiler Charlie bit me :

There's a settler with that archer.

T51 I meet Isabella in the west next to the barb city.

Zara and Charlie are Buddhist. Isabella Hindu. Hannibal Jewish - presumably founded by Mansa. Pacal is a fellow heathen. Guess I'm going to stand with the Buddhists for now.

Wonders are going really slowly on this map - none built yet...

Spoiler T51 screenshot :

 

[krikav]

I think I would have grown to size4 before starting the settler even, to get both mine+camp worked.
Your settler was faster but not fast enough it seems, too bad about that clams spot.
The whip was unnecessery, his settler was standing on a road and the banana was almost certainly roaded by then, so it was very likely he would have settled, and you needed 2 turns to settle.

Capital has conflicting interests now... There are alot of nice mines to grow into and work, but for each mine you add, whipping becomes less appealing.
Getting it up to pop9, working 3 grassland mines, 1 plains mine, gems, camp, rice and two grassland farms makes it food neutral and would yield 19 hammers per turn.
Try to prioritize getting capital up to if not size9 so at least a respectable size toward the attack.
Gems are abit of a curse here as you can't not work them... but they effectively turn your irrigated rice dry. At least two grassland farms asap is needed to let capital flourish!

Try to make some estimation of how many workerturns worth of work your empire has, and set a goal for number of workers.
Do take height for them to chop down every forest within only a handful of turns after construction is in too.
We want a nice and very sharp pivot to a production spike at that point.

If you are desperate for peaceful settlements, you can settle a city south of the dye-lake and make a galley there to settle the clam island... But that doesn't sound good.
Better stay at 3 cities and take Pacals imho.
Did you get -1 border tension with Charly because of his settlement? Your capitals culture "steals" some of his tiles now, not sure if it's enough for diplo hit though.

I like the idea of building axes and possibly getting the barb city. Axes are always useful!

 

[5tephen]

Note to self - slow down on key decisions - should have asked about whipping the settler before doing it.

In retrospect of course you're right about the road on the banana - I was thinking there's no way I would have considered roading that banana at this stage but the AI doesn't think like that and has many more worker turns to burn than me. I'm going to replay from the turn I whipped the settler as that was a predictably bad move that would have been avoided by seeking input then. I feel this strikes the balance between reloading for learning on a forum game where there will still be later game decisions to unpick and claiming a hollow victory from dependence on reloading.

I need to unlearn my high valuation of peaceful expansion.


Working from the T49 screenshot above:

Will finish slow building settler in capital and then use it to (hopefully) claim the copper site.

West worker is going to move E of capital now and chop. East worker is going to put 2 more turns into farm after this turn and then move through the tile the other worker will have just deforested to chop the tile 1S of capital to land 2 chops into a granary which I think must be a key priority now if we're growing to size 9.

My second city will nearly fill the food bar building granary and then whip the worker. The new worker will build a road SW of corn to connect third city. I will delay founding third city until either worker is ready to improve the copper (as it's basically useless until that tile is online) or I see a settler coming to steal it from me - correct me if I'm wrong but I think claiming the copper is quite high priority for my strategy now?

Capital probably gets a library (I think this is necessary with the gems and the palace?) after granary, then barracks, then monument to stay happy. Vienne will need it's granary chopped by the first worker to be free from chopping at the capital and once it has a granary, can slow build barracks whilst doing cycles of 2 pop whipping at size 4 for workers and axemen.

I think I need about 70 workers turns to get all the farms, mines, cottage north of Vienne, hook up gems and rice (lower priority but health cap will drop in capital with chopping.) I initially thought that 4 workers should be enough for this but I think 5 would be better as presumably I want to pre-chop before construction.

I think border tension with Charlie will come on T52 when my capital pops borders.

Going to try and learn my lesson now and wait to see if this seems like a good strategy before progressing!

 

[krikav]

Sounds good to prioritize granary in capital with two chops.
Library in capital is good, but should not be rushed I think, prio on getting up in size.

After monument whip, where did the overflow land? I think I would have landed that overflow into a granary. Then that overflow plus some turns working ivory perhaps would have gotten granary up to 30/60 to be 1pop whipped?
If overflow went into worker, or if that plan doesn't work, then a chop into the granary to 1pop it sounds good.
I would pick the forest 2E of vienne as that adds two possible forest regrowth edges and only removes one.
The forest on the hill 2S of Vienne I think copper city should have.

I would not delay third city, upkeep can't be that high for third city, even the city center hammer/food is worth it. And if it's connected, that city too will roll the die to catch buddhism every turn.
I agree on getting copper is good!
You can make do without, but that would mean archers+catapults+elephants and thats not as fun. Also you likely cannot attack as early as you need to wait for at least some elephants too. With copper you are good to go once you have 2-3 catapults at the front!

 

[5tephen]

Agreed - everything in capital has to slow build now if it’s going to grow in size.

Overflow from monument whip landed in a worker which is somewhere in the queue. I guess the reason this may have been suboptimal is I delayed city growth where I would have been working an extra from the floodplain whilst putting that turn into building the worker. An option to regain the lost overflow would be putting more than 30 production into worker before whip - most optimal is probably to try and time getting 30 production into granary at size 2 when food bar has 7 or 12 in it and then whipping (would need to hold growth for a turn when growing back if 12.)

Wouldn’t have thought of the forest 2E of Vienne as isn’t yet in culture but now you mention it, that will be much better and will be in culture in time.

I'll get third/final city up ASAP.

Thank you everyone for your help. @krikav the quantity and detail of your responses has been especially helpful - thanks for all the effort

 

[5tephen]

Turn 58 update.

I've used my workers as I said I would in the update above. One of the workers then roaded the gems and the other one is working on farming south of capital - the one who roaded the gems will join it ASAP as need this farm up in the next 3 turns before the capital grows past it's current amount of farms. Both will then farm south of the lake then probably complete road north of gems. Capital will be growing on farms and the lake. Depending on timing, either I'll then use one or both to road east of capital and onto rice. Other priority in capital is grassland mines.

Writing is in this turn and I've opened borders with Charlie and Zara who are both Buddhist and Pacal who is my target. Not opened borders with anyone else as yet and probably don't intend to for a while. I've met Hannibal who is in the west in addition to Isabella. I have border tensions with Charlie. Hannibal appears to be worst enemy of Charlie, Mansa and Isabella. I guess I could/should open borders with Isabella. Not yet met Mansa.

Capital built the settler, got a granary and has put some turns into monument and will now switch to slow building library. Vienne grew to size 3, took the elephant for a little bit and put enough hammers into a worker that it could be 1 pop whipped into a granary that could then be one pop whipped and is now growing back on a barracks. Will be whipping a couple of workers here from 4 to 2 before barracks and axes.

Third city is up and will 1 pop whip a granary at size 1, then monument, barracks, axes. Can share corn when building workers in Vienne.

Whipped worker from Vienne is building a road to third city which was a surprising drain on maintenance - nearly delayed writing by a turn. Probably this worker should have skipped the road for a bit and improved copper straight away.

Scout has gone along Pacal's north west border and will now move into his territory to scout back towards me - eventually he will become a great medic.

Having finished writing, I'm going masonry, maths, construction with longer term plan of AH -> HBR after attack begins. Will pause research and build cash for a few turns - may be that library can come online to help with research but will resume research the minute gold reserves could get us to construction.

Spoiler T52 - border tensions :

Spoiler T54 - Hannibal's borders in the west :

Spoiler Diplo :

Spoiler T58 state of the empire :

 

[krikav]

Not much time to check for details now, but I see nothing that looks off.
Maybe math before masonry, or do you intend to failgold on pyramids?
Math first is more flexible, you can get more hammers faster if plans change, and it's also a better tradebait if someone goes early alpha. Could get IW (or HBR!) for free.

Nice, Pacal has stone! He might build pyramids for you.

Vienne should work floodplain and third city work corn, no? That way you harvest the maximum amount of food. Or is there something with granary micro that changes that?

Overall, Tolosa looks weak. Should consider what you really need there.
It won't have time to get barracks, granary, monument.
Neither of them are strictly needed either. Vienne can hog hte corn and whip most itself I think.
Working copper+grasshillmine and doing the stray 1pop whip whenever it reaches pop3 will get you some units.
So Granary isn't _needed_. and maybe it's overkill to get it in both vienne and Tolosa during the timeframe up to the ~T100 attack.
The utility of the granary is in proportion to the amount of food that is harvested, and since those two cities combined don't have that much the cost/benefit of one in Tolosa might not be worth it.
*
Barracks is not needed, not every unit need to be strong to begin with.
Monument is not needed either, no tiles to reach anyway.
If you do plan on ganary there, do cottage the tile 2N of it.

 

[5tephen]

Definitely maths before masonry - bit of lost concentration on my part there.

I consider my assumptions on buildings in Vienne and Tolosa pleasantly challenged! I agree that none of the buildings are strictly needed. Having decided this and with 6 already invested in the monument with a happiness bonus, and a small delay before I can build axes, I decided to complete the monument. I will need some culture in this city at some point or Zara might flip it and it will claim a grassland forest for a few more hammers than chopping it from outside my cultural borders. After that Tolosa's sole job is building axemen. I don't think Pacal has horses but I suppose a couple of spears should be built too just in case.

I'm not sure if it was the best thing or not to work the corn in Tolosa having decided not to build granary in it but I worked the floodplain in Vienne whilst the copper was improved in Tolosa.

Vienne will slow build the barracks. 2 pop whip a unit at size 4 and keep it in the queue whilst barracks slow builds some more.

Bibracate will slow build library, then barracks, then units.

Tech maths, masonry, construction. I have started going for maths even without library as I thought it would increase my chances of trading it for IW which would be helpful for gallic warriors, iron would be a really nice tile if available and getting rid of jungle around Vienne and Tolosa will eventually be beneficial (low priority for now.)

Regarding the barbarian city of Minoan - I should be getting some axes soon. If I can capture it, should I do so? It looks like it's got some whip potential and the forests to chop but is it worth border tensions with Hannibal? I'm erring towards it being worth it if it can be sniped after someone else's attack but probably not if I have to bring a stack of axes and risk losing a bunch when my main focus is on Pacal.

Spoiler Minoan :

Bibracate has grown continuously on farms and then lake since last update. Built library for a while and have had to change back to monument to get happy cap up in time for size 9. Also didn't remember/know in the first place that malus for lack of military police doubles at size 6 and I almost didn't bring a warrior back in time.

Spoiler Happy issues :

I'm now up to 4 workers and I'm going to stop building them now. I calculate 51 worker turns needed to get everything done which should be more than enough this side of construction. I might have been better off stopping at 3 workers. I also realised that not only was building a road before improving the copper a mistake but even stepping onto the jungle was a mistake as would have been able to road NE of copper on the turn worker stepped onto jungle and never needed the jungle road .

Spoiler Pointless road on jungle :

Spoiler Pacal's land is mediocre - probably 3 good cities to take. :

I opened borders with Isabella and will close them again ASAP as now she's worst enemy of Hannibal who is quite close to me and is likely to dislike me when I hopefully become Buddhist and when I attack Pacal.

Spoiler Isabella is now building all the wonders. :

T67 and I've now met everybody. Looking at the diplo screen and the positions of units, Charlie, Zara, Hannibal, Pacal we know without any guess work, Mansa is to the west and yet to meet everybody whilst I'm uncertain about Isabella but I think in the west as fairly sure she didn't come through Charlie although she could be in the north-east somewhere. Nobody aside from me and Charlie have border tensions. Hannibal is worst enemy of Isabella and Hannibal is worst enemy of Charlie and Isabella. Might be able to manipulate this by begging Zara/Charlie on Hannibal at some point...

Edit: I think Isabella must be in the west as it's neither Hannibal or Mansa founded Judaism so it was probably her and they would then have got Judaism from her.

Spoiler Diplomacy :

Spoiler Trade screens. :

Will pause here for suggestions/feedback.

 

[krikav]

Mansa has alpha so with luck we can get some stuff from him from math.
Capital is getting up to size fast maybe library should have been, or should be whipped anyway.

Jungle road is good, will speed up movement of units throughout the game, cottage tile NE of copper to prevent jungle growth and get another ok tile.
Perhaps Vienne is better of on a 5->3 cycle than on a 4->2? Corn+floodplain+lake are all nice tiles and not sure the added efficiency by 4->2 whipping is worth it since commerce is the main bottleneck now (I think).
With Mansa, gems and library... tech can easily outpace production too though.

Barb city is very nice, I see no reason not to get it if you can.
Might even be worth it to bring the first pair of catapults there so you can get some to 4xp and get CR2 on them for Pacal.
If Hannibal steals it, thats likely no biggie. Diplo sort of dictates that he is the next target...?

Does Pacal have IW? Can't see any +hammer possible iron tile.
Tundra copper isn't improved on the screenshot, if the scout was there recently he haven't had metal for long, should be quite alot of archers everywhere.

Too bad with no lucky religion spread.

Alt+M to create a reminder to close borders with Isabella, I always forget if I don't add those.

 

[5tephen]

Slow progress, sorry.

I whipped a library in Bibracate on T67. Grew for a turn or two after that to not stall my growth altogether and then ran 2 scientists since. Put science down to 0% for a turn whilst library was being whipped. Sadly, Mansa got maths the turn before me. Charlie will now trade maths but nothing good to trade I don't think?

Spoiler Maths trade? :

Have now got 3 axes, and more on the way. Pacal took the barb city and converted to Buddhism which could be a problem.

Closed borders with Isabella as discussed. Still no Buddhism for me.

Waiting until I can afford to research masonry and construction then planning to pause for advice.

Don't think a lot has really happened since my last update but as I'm 11 turns on, I thought it best to stop in case of anyone wanting to give advice rather than find myself 30 turns on with loads of mistakes.

Spoiler Overview :

 

[5tephen]

Played on 1 turn and presented with a problem.

Spoiler Isabella demands maths :

The risk of not paying her demand is war and I've regretted not aceding to such requests in the past when made by neighbouring war mongers. As she doesn't have a stack sat on my borders I will have some time to prepare even if she daggers me and I'm not doing too badly in terms of military - I will have 5 axes out by turn 81 even without switching to panic mode.

Spoiler Diplomacy overview :

I assume giving in to Isabella's demand will upset Hannibal for trading with worst enemy and his lands neigbour mine to the west - seems better to try and keep him on side.

Spoiler Opportunity cost :

The other thing tilting me towards rejecting the demand is, if I don't get daggered, I will be able to trade maths for iron working with Isabella that hopefully should be a fair trade reducing the chances of 'you traded with our worst enemy.'

Overall, I intend to reject this demand but will pause now and see if anyone thinks that I'm undervaluing the risk of war with Isabella.