Shooting at San Diego Synagogue

[El_Machinae]

This clarification changes nothing about his intended meaning. There's nothing degenerate and deviant about not being straight, even if you make a point of basing your identity around that fact (because hey, the people who think you're degenerate and deviant may just want to kill you for it).

There is nothing deviant about not being straight. I think we all agree about that. You're reading the post as if there's not a subset of people who are deviant. The degeneracy was clarified. It was also not referring to people best classed as 'not straight', but of a specific obsession with portraying sex. I just allowed him the presumption that he wasn't referring to 'all LBGT' people when discussing 'deviants'. It's hardly a huge leap to allow someone.

There are two points to conflict against: that the 'non-deviant' component of LBGT activism is MUCH larger than what we see on the surface (i.e., the deviant proportion is only a small subset) and that the 'degeneracy' label is subconsciously only regarding non-straight sex discussion, because we've already normalized public discussion of straight sex.

Here's my thinking: you can tilt at his words with your interpretation. I'll tilt at them using my interpretation. We'll see who can change his thinking and who can just flame until he leaves the board.

If I'm not, the most obvious solution is to have one set of standards that apply to everyone. Presumably, these are the standards necessary to do the job.

Yeah, we can naturally sort people into the military according to their capabilities, and obviously there's enough to be done that 'biological sex' barely matters. The 'same set of standards' only triggers people's concerns when it's a parallel to "everyone is equally allowed to marry people of the opposite gender". Or "everyone is equally forbidden from sleeping under a bridge". Or whatevs. Just watch out for the tonal shift in discussion.

 

[Farm Boy]

because we've already normalized public discussion of straight sex.

Biggest show on TV literally lead with sister-****ing and child-murder then just kept on rolling. It might be normalized, but it's still degenerate smut for degenerate smut tastes. Then I wonder why everyone assumes the worst of people when this is the mental realm they choose to inhabit for entertainment and enjoyment.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah, we can naturally sort people into the military according to their capabilities, and obviously there's enough to be done that 'biological sex' barely matters. The 'same set of standards' only triggers people's concerns when it's a parallel to "everyone is equally allowed to marry people of the opposite gender". Or "everyone is equally forbidden from sleeping under a bridge". Or whatevs. Just watch out for the tonal shift in discussion.

I was thinking more along the lines of "you can run a mile in 6 minutes" or "you can do at least 50 push-ups in a row" type of standards. I've heard that men and women have different thresholds for these in the military, and this kind of physical performance is the only thing that comes to mind as potentially relevant to "biological sex". If the thresholds are the same there's no meaning to "serving under biological sex" in the first place since people would do the same work regardless. At least in principle.

There are two points to conflict against: that the 'non-deviant' component of LBGT activism is MUCH larger than what we see on the surface (i.e., the deviant proportion is only a small subset)

The "deviant" portion is tiny and given a level of attention enormously disproportionate to actual numbers. The news operates that way in general. With a decent estimate of the total number of trans people per your earlier link, if the media coverage were to be believed proportionate we should expect an irate trans person to create a scene we each directly observe with high frequency.

That obviously doesn't happen, for the same reason other deviants aren't common in day to day experience. The news prefers to emphasize exceptional cases. Yet people who don't pay attention to base rates/think a little bit are mostly not going to notice trans people in their day to day activities and then see this crap on the news and think that's normal, in defiance of their knowledge of every other news coverage pattern.

Biggest show on TV literally lead with sister-****ing and child-murder then just kept on rolling. It might be normalized, but it's still degenerate smut for degenerate smut tastes. Then I wonder why everyone assumes the worst of people when this is the mental realm they choose to inhabit for entertainment and enjoyment.

As a CK2 player I suppose I shouldn't point fingers. While inbreeding is usually a bad idea in CK2, child murder can be quite lucrative or even get you some land outright (say you raid to capture someone's wife, land her, jail/execute her, and her son inherits. Give him a title higher than his father, kill him and his father becomes your subject! All without a proper war! No need for that father to keep the titles, either...)

When people disingenuously say "think of the children" these kinds of plays come to mind. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but at least it's fun.

 

[Farm Boy]

When people disingenuously say "think of the children" these kinds of plays come to mind. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but at least it's fun.

Maybe. It's not like everyone doesn't have their own things that are guilty pleasures or dark fantasies, but the normalization is important. Harlequin kept the paperback industry running. Porn built the internet. In fact, I think people regard the fantasy as more important than the actual often enough, which is sort of messed up when you realize it's happening.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

It's almost as if humans have always been weird when it comes to sexual interests.

This isn't anything new, a brief look at the art that is available throughout various cultures and ages show this, heck look at some of the Japanese historical stuff alongside cave paintings and medieval European art.

Humans have always been doing stuff like this

 

[Kyriakos]

Dude has said he thinks the violence suffered by LGBT people is "conveniently imagined to happen..." what sort of bs is this? Regardless of race, religion, class or nationality, LGBT are subjected to types of abuse that just doesn't happen to heterosexual cisgendered people but this wonderful human being thinks it's made up, so no i won't give him any benefit of the doubt, that went away as soon as he started doubling down

Well, compared to the actual murder he committed, the vast majority of LGBT people won't face/fall victim to such a level of violence - maybe it was all a cleverly planned act to show the actual threat

I haven't read his thesis, cause i doubt it is worth it. This isn't even a massacre; just another person who has serious issues and ends up killing one (?) or a couple of people and then rots in jail or dies.

Imo the LGBT etc issue is not as straightforward, cause while most people likely mind their own business (as they should) and don't act against LGBT, it also seems that a few will react negatively to specific actions by LGBT (or whoever else, so it isn't about LGBT). Eg in the case of male homosexuals, i am pretty sure that no sane person has an issue with them, unless they actually act like dudebros and sexually harass you. In such a case you can expect the same reaction that a victim of harassment by a heterosexual would show.

 

[Lexicus]

Eg in the case of male homosexuals, i am pretty sure that no sane person has an issue with them, unless they actually act like dudebros and sexually harass you. In such a case you can expect the same reaction that a victim of harassment by a heterosexual would show.

Straight men are afraid of gay men because they're afraid that gay men will treat them like they treat women, confirmed,

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I mean... straight men have literally assaulted and/or killed gay men because they either thought they were coming onto them and felt deeply ashamed/embarrassed or because they percieved them as a threat to their heterosexuality.

Not even getting onto the idea that LGBT merely need to have sex with the opposite sex to "correct them" (corrective rape is a thing btw)

I mean this isn't up for debate, straight men are notoriously fragile about their sexuality and there are too many cases of them attacking gay men, lesbians, transgendered people because they think they've somehow been "tricked"

 

[Kyriakos]

Straight men are afraid of gay men because they're afraid that gay men will treat them like they treat women, confirmed,

Are you serious? :/
FYI not all heterosexual men sexually harass women. And "fearing something will happen" is entirely a different case (certainly pathological) than having said thing happen, ie harassment.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Indeed, not all men sexually harass women, just enough do that society, media and their own family literally needs to warn them to becareful when they go out, lest they be raped by one of those men.

 

[Kyriakos]

Sure. Not seeing what that has to do with being ok with harassment as long as it is by non-straights.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Ah yes, the "gay/trans panic" defence.

And yes, sexual harrassment is always wrong, regardless of the type of person doing it.

 

[Lexicus]

Sure. Not seeing what that has to do with being ok with harassment as long as it is by non-straights.

You're invoking a trope. Maybe you didn't know it was a trope but I find that hard to believe.

 

[Kyriakos]

Ah yes, the "gay/trans panic" defence.

So accordingly the fear of heterosexual harassment is also a panic? I think it would be rather logical to agree that harassment is causing antipathy regardless of who does it, no?

(x post with Lexicus; i am not interested in LGBT hating tropes; i am surprised that the point made is seen as a trope instead of just logical. I have met both non harassing and harassing male homosexuals, fwiw).

 

[AmazonQueen]

Ah yes, the "gay/trans panic" defence.

As someone who has been the subject of unwanted and aggressive advances by both men and women in nightclubs I'd have to say it can be an unpleasant, even frightening experience. I see no reason for thinking a man couldn't find it so as well.
LGBT people are likely to have been the victims of harassment and prejudice themselves but that doesn't mean that they are all going to be nice people.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

So accordingly the fear of heterosexual harassment is also a panic? I think it would be rather logical to agree that harassment is causing antipathy regardless of who does it, no?

(x post with Lexicus; i am not interested in LGBT hating tropes; i am surprised that the point made is seen as a trope instead of just logical. I have met both non harassing and harassing male homosexuals, fwiw).

The problem is that said defence is often used as an attempt to justify violence, even if the victim wasn't actually harassed.

As someone who has been the subject of unwanted and aggressive advances by both men and women in nightclubs I'd have to say it can be an unpleasant, even frightening experience. I see no reason for thinking a man couldn't find it so as well.
LGBT people are likely to have been the victims of harassment and prejudice themselves but that doesn't mean that they are all going to be nice people.

Of course.

 

[Kyriakos]

The problem is that said defence is often used as an attempt to justify violence, even if the victim wasn't actually harassed.

Not my issue, though; i certainly am not advocating violence.
I think everyone should respect the other person, and not be harassing. If they are then the obvious effect will be some negative emotion or other.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I would invite you to read up on the concept of gay/trans panic and how it's been weaponised against the LGBT community.

Examples can be seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

I'm trying to be cordial here, but your refrain of "Not my issue, though" is a cop out, the fact is that women, LGBT people etc are at risk of violence from men, be they straight or otherwise, not just for engaging in any sort of activity with them, but also for refusing or even being seen as somehow "leading them on". I don't like any sort of apologism for this and i don't tolerate it either.

 

[Kyriakos]

I would invite you to read up on the concept of gay/trans panic and how it's been weaponised against the LGBT community.

Examples can be seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

I can imagine what is meant by that, and obviously i agree with you that it is a major problem.
It still isn't what i was talking about. Some people - regardless of sexuality - are douches and harassing.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Yes, no one is disagreeing with what you are saying about harassment, but the problem is that people have used it as an attempt to defend themselves from assaulting and literally murdering LGBT people, which leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and is an example of the issues any LGBT person might face, especially transmen/transwomen.

I ask you to reflect why i and others may take issue with what you are saying, even if it seems self-evident to you.