Shooting at San Diego Synagogue

[Manfred Belheim]

i agree, its a term frequently thrown around by alt-right fascists.

Are they better or worse than regular fascists?

 

[Patine]

Can i interest you in pondering what your life would be like without facebook?
[/proselytise]

I never fell for Mark Sugartown's honeytrap. I've never had an account or even existed on his evil, Orwellian empire. Of course, my convictions meant I missed my uncle's funeral, because, for some idiotic reason, the whole thing was arranged entirely over Facebook.

 

[H4run]

I thought Freud wasn't well-regarded for accuracy these days? Atheists can make the same mistakes in reasoning as those following religions. In some cases the thought process is even identical, just replacing traditional religion with some other model of belief w/o evidence.

I don't quoted Freud in order to demonstrate a sound argument, yes many of his theory are laughable or straight cringey, I quoted it to demonstrates this is an issue that is cannot be limited to specific group of people like "the believer of Abrahamic religion".

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't quoted Freud in order to demonstrate a sound argument, yes many of his theory are laughable or straight cringey, I quoted it to demonstrates this is an issue that is cannot be limited to specific group of people like "the believer of Abrahamic religion".

Fair enough, and it's true in general that picking a particular model of beliefs w/o evidence isn't going to help or insulate much. Nor will do doing so guarantee against making mistakes. You don't get an accurate model of reality by simply rejecting one inaccuracy. That would be like saying "not 234,563" is the answer to 2+2 = ?.

 

[Patine]

I don't quoted Freud in order to demonstrate a sound argument, yes many of his theory are laughable or straight cringey, I quoted it to demonstrates this is an issue that is cannot be limited to specific group of people like "the believer of Abrahamic religion".

That much is obvious. It's what they call a "fundamental human flaw" - things which you see a lot of idiots online (moreso on other forums, comment pages, online games, etc. than here - but, from time to time it rears it's ugly head here, too) is attempted by someone to say, with utmost brainwashed sincerity, are ONLY flaws of certain political, religious, or other demographic groups, specifically.

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, I agree. It's a deep social problem. My suspicion is that it got codified into the Abrahamic faiths because it's a deep problem. But that's not the same as forgiving the fact that people pass off these works to each other as if they're holy.

There's also no surprise that people like nicotine for deep biological reasons. But we can also mock old medical texts that didn't discourage smoking. We'd be in a different world if some decided that the old medical texts had magical significance. And other people were all "oh, all medical texts are equally valid, don't be so judgey!"

 

[Senethro]

For rape, under 10%. False accusation convictions around 1% or so. Even combined, convictions in either direction are sub-10%. This is a good reason to look at assertions of what "really happened" in the other 90% with intense scrutiny, rather than accepting blatant statistical lies in either direction.

I won't get into "sexual assault" since people don't like to define their terms. I would define it as forcing physical contact against the other person's will, but that doesn't appear to be universally accepted for some reason. Someone who got stared at on a train for a few creepy minutes was not "assaulted" or even "harassed".

We weren't talking about false accusations, but you want to. Compare: noone talks about false accusations of burglary. Why is that? Oh.

"What really happened" + "blatant statistical lies" = "In my top logic opinion a substantial %age of women reporting rape are liars, and I won't qualify this if I don't have to". How about you give us a figure instead of your feelings about women reporting rape?

 

[Patine]

We weren't talking about false accusations, but you want to. Compare: noone talks about false accusations of burglary. Why is that? Oh.

"What really happened" + "blatant statistical lies" = "In my top logic opinion a substantial %age of women reporting rape are liars, and I won't qualify this if I don't have to". How about you give us a figure instead of your feelings about women reporting rape?

But remember, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were a lot more people accused of being Communists, and having their lives destroyed for it, than Gus Hall and his similar far-left Communist and Hard-Socialist fringe parties in the U.S. could produce membership rosters for from that era, when, in the 1970's when they went through the hoops of getting "re-legalized" and able to attain ballot access.

Of course, the fact that, like sexual assault in many U.S. States and Courts, the "crimes" of the Red Scare were very ill-defined and highly subject to point-of-view.

Disclaimer: I firmly believe rape and sexual assault are very serious, but SO is a false accusation of such, and that the Red Scare was travesty toward American Constitutional Law and due process - I'm only comparing the two in certain by empirical similarities as commonly view - the Red Scare in it's own day.

 

[Senethro]

Therefore?

 

[Farm Boy]

Oh, I agree. It's a deep social problem. My suspicion is that it got codified into the Abrahamic faiths because it's a deep problem. But that's not the same as forgiving the fact that people pass off these works to each other as if they're holy.

There's also no surprise that people like nicotine for deep biological reasons. But we can also mock old medical texts that didn't discourage smoking. We'd be in a different world if some decided that the old medical texts had magical significance. And other people were all "oh, all medical texts are equally valid, don't be so judgey!"

Oh that's a damned clever slide between what and why.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

We weren't talking about false accusations, but you want to. Compare: noone talks about false accusations of burglary. Why is that? Oh.

People do talk about them, albeit less frequently. This is due directly to the nature of evidence available in burglary vs rape. Even so, people can be and have been falsely accused of burglary/theft/assault/murder and in some cases unfortunately even convicted.

For a somewhat recent example of "talking about false accusation", look up the LeSean McCoy case where his ex accused him of hiring someone/setting her up because she had some stuff she refused to return to him stolen. There's some fishy stuff going on there, enough that I distrust everyone involved by default, but it's certainly an example of talking about this.

"What really happened" + "blatant statistical lies" = "In my top logic opinion a substantial %age of women reporting rape are liars, and I won't qualify this if I don't have to". How about you give us a figure instead of your feelings about women reporting rape?

I won't give a figure because I have no evidence to support one estimate against many possible others. Could be that 3% of accusations are false. Could be 20% or higher. I don't know and I assert people claiming they *do* know are lying.

What I do know is that the overwhelming majority of these cases don't have enough evidence to pin down that a crime occurred. That makes claims about "rape rates" based on accusations rather than convictions disingenuous.

 

[El_Machinae]

If you had to guess which one was closer to the actual assault rate: the number of women who claim to have been assaulted or the number of criminal accusations, which would you guess?

If a shop owner will say they've been shoplifted from, but have never filed a report, do you think they've been shoplifted from?

 

[Senethro]

If you had to guess which one was closer to the actual assault rate: the number of women who claim to have been assaulted or the number of criminal accusations, which would you guess?

If a shop owner will say they've been shoplifted from, but have never filed a report, do you think they've been shoplifted from?

Yeah, probably? Its a common crime that might fall beneath police interest in many jurisdictions and so reporting it might be non-functional?

 

[Patine]

Yeah, probably? Its a common crime that might fall beneath police interest in many jurisdictions and so reporting it might be non-functional?

A cashier I know quite well in a gas-station/convenience store just two-and-a-half-blocs from where I live where I often buy cups of coffee once told a woman from out of town who was walking at night, "if someone grabs you, makes undue gestures, or otherwise moves to attack you sexually, scream "Fire!," not "Rape!" - you'll attract far more attention in this neighbourhood."

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you had to guess which one was closer to the actual assault rate: the number of women who claim to have been assaulted or the number of criminal accusations, which would you guess?

If a shop owner will say they've been shoplifted from, but have never filed a report, do you think they've been shoplifted from?

I'm not sure. Criminal accusations are necessarily equal or below the actual rate (and close enough to guaranteed to be below). If we go with claims even beyond criminal accusations, it really starts to matter whether the "real" number of false accusations is more like that 3% vs that 20+%.

A cashier I know quite well in a gas-station/convenience store just two-and-a-half-blocs from where I live where I often buy cups of coffee once told a woman from out of town who was walking at night, "if someone grabs you, makes undue gestures, or otherwise moves to attack you sexually, scream "Fire!," not "Rape!" - you'll attract far more attention in this neighbourhood."

Is that the kind of fire that leaves 3rd degree burns, or the kind that leaves chalk outlines?

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm not sure. Criminal accusations are necessarily equal or below the actual rate (and close enough to guaranteed to be below). If we go with claims even beyond criminal accusations, it really starts to matter whether the "real" number of false accusations is more like that 3% vs that 20+%.

Criminal accusations are not guaranteed to be less than the actual rate. That is a complex Matrix whether there is ulterior motive to making a criminal accusation. We live in a world where the hassle, the inconvenience, and the inefficacy of making a true accusation means that true accusations will be underreported.

But I'm just asking you to guess. When it comes to shoplifting, we would believe that self-report among shopkeepers is a much closer indication to the true shoplifting rate as compared to the percentage observable through crime statistics

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh that's a damned clever slide between what and why.

There is more than one "why". There is a component of homophobia that is due to our biological roots. And there is a component of our homophobia because people are willing to believe lies about what God said

 

[Farm Boy]

Pretend away at whatever it is you think carries meaning.

 

[Lexicus]

There is a component of homophobia that is due to our biological roots. And there is a component of our homophobia because people are willing to believe lies about what God said

I seriously doubt that homophobia has biological roots or that "what God said" is a very important cause. My guess is it's tied up in the emergence of patriarchy, with the corollary obsession with paternity as the logic governing the inheritance (and thus social reproduction) of property and titles.

 

[Patine]

There is more than one "why". There is a component of homophobia that is due to our biological roots. And there is a component of our homophobia because people are willing to believe lies about what God said

Pretend away at whatever it is you think carries meaning.

I seriously doubt that homophobia has biological roots or that "what God said" is a very important cause. My guess is it's tied up in the emergence of patriarchy, with the corollary obsession with paternity as the logic governing the inheritance (and thus social reproduction) of property and titles.

It's interesting to note that, even in old, non-Monotheist, cultures where male homosexuality was acceptable in a limited purview of society - famously Ancient Greece, but also Ancient Assyria, the Blackfoot Plains Native American Tribe, several pre-colonial Bantu peoples in inland Tanzania, certain societies and times in East Asia, etc. - it always involved one partner being completely, in role and social status, immasculated, while the other, the dominant one, kept his full social "manhood," and often also married a woman as well.