Should East Prussia / Kaliningrad Oblast be returned to Germany?

[Agent327]

German land belongs to Germans. If there wasn't the whole uh, Second World War stigma, associated with it, we'd consider this an injustice.

Really? Even if Germany does not want it?

 

[Gucumatz]

All problems would be solved if we just had Germany annex Poland again, then we would have a true East Prussia return

 

[TheLastOne36]

All problems would be solved if we just had Germany annex Poland again, then we would have a true East Prussia return

That's frowned upon.

 

[warpus]

Germany got Podolski and Klose. And Borowski.. And Trochowski.

That's all they're going to get.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Really? Even if Germany does not want it?

Is there any serious discussion of repatriating Koenigsburg to Germany? Ideally Koenigsburg would remain German, but I don't think Russia is going to be giving it up any time soon.

 

[Dachs]

Is there any serious discussion of repatriating Koenigsburg to Germany?

No. There isn't. And there doesn't need to be. Goofy thread.

In the interests of full disclosure, my paternal grandmother's family lived in Prussia - not East Prussia - but moved to the United States by stages between 1880 and 1940ish. But I don't care about the old family farm near Danzig, which the Red Army apparently burned down anyway; I don't even really care about the old family farm in Ohio, which is still standing.

 

[Evie]

Treating this as a thought experiment: if the fate of a location like Kaliningrad was to be determined, how should it be?

I believe a referendum process would have to be the answer. "Historical claims" are a nonsensical reason for one country or another to have a piece of land: the past is the past, it's the present and the future we should worry about.

That said, not all past should be ignored, and things like forced resettlement and grabbing the land of people who flee from your armies should not in general be encouraged. On the other hand, lots of people now living in Kaliningrad had nothing to do with those actions, and deserve a say in their own future whatever their citizenship say.

I would have the following people vote in the referendum.

1)Any german or russian national who can demonstrate they were born in the territory in question.
2)Any german national born while living as refugees after fleeing the territory in question.
3)Any russian national who relocated to Kaliningrad after significant resettlement efforts were over (date to be determined), or who relocated to Kaliningrad while a minor.

While excluding the following:
1)Any german national who claim descent from inhabitant of the disputed region, but who was born after his parents had firmly reestablished a stable live (ie, not a refugee camp/refugee village life. IN case this thread is exactly what it looks like) in Germany. You don't get to make claims by virtue of your parents or grandparents once living there.
2)Any Russian national who, being an adult at the time, relocated to Kaliningrad during a period determined as the resettlement period.

This would tend to include most people with legitimate ties to the territories, while excludign those people whose ties to the territory are more directly- based on hostile takeover and the use of force.

I estimate that in this case relatively few germans would be added to the poor and relatively few Russians substracted, resulting in whatever the result would have been if we hadn't gone through the process.

(The process, incidentally, started out as a thought experiment on who should be allowed to vote on the fate of the Falklands. Where it actually change the voter list even less)

 

[Quackers]

My family owned a farm in Eastern Prussia, so yeah they would probably like it returned back after all it was their home and they grew up their...

 

[Terxpahseyton]

In the process of German reunification Western German politicians were actually given the chance to also get Kaliningrad/Königsberg back. It was in contrast to what is now Western Poland an actual possibility. It promised some additional $$$ for struggling Soviet-Russia. The German response was something like "Uh, err, why thank you. But thank you no."

 

[Goodfella]

Oh god that means I'm a Palestinian, effectively!

I think it actually means you're Israeli since you're the occupying force (in terms of the comparison that is).

 

[Phrossack]

This kind of debate is fruitless. If you want to go back all the way to the original owners then the land belongs to the trees. Koenigsberg was German for a good few centuries before its German inhabitants were forcibly expelled. Unless you plan to reinvent a country for ethnic and cultural groups which no longer exist, or play nationalism with trying to assign long-dead cultures modern equivalents and return the land to whatever nation is most appropriate in that context, the Kaliningrad Oblast is German.

Was German. Why should almost the entire population of the oblast' be forced to leave or join a foreign state against their will (and the will of that state)? Why would the Germans want to govern a bunch of Russians?

If we follow this logic, then white settlers would need to leave Australia, New Zealand, Africa, and all of the New World because their ancestors expelled, killed, or conquered the locals. Poles would be forced to leave Prussia for the east, where the Belorussians and Ukrainians would have to leave or accept Polish rule against their will. Chile would vacate its northern regions. Paraguay would regain its old lands at the expense of its neighbors. Spain would lose Al-Andalus. Greece would forcibly retake Izmir and Trabzon, if not all of Anatolia.

 

[Gucumatz]

If we follow this logic, then white settlers would need to leave Australia, New Zealand, Africa, and all of the New World because their ancestors expelled, killed, or conquered the locals. Poles would be forced to leave Prussia for the east, where the Belorussians and Ukrainians would have to leave or accept Polish rule against their will. Chile would vacate its northern regions. Paraguay would regain its old lands at the expense of its neighbors. Spain would lose Al-Andalus. Greece would forcibly retake Izmir and Trabzon, if not all of Anatolia.

What exactly is wrong with this above scenario

But again, it all comes down to a lack of power. If natives had the power to do so, homelands could be retaken. Until then, none of the land "should be returned". It only becomes right if you have the power, or will, to make it right

 

[Dachs]

Was German. Why should almost the entire population of the oblast' be forced to leave or join a foreign state against their will (and the will of that state)? Why would the Germans want to govern a bunch of Russians?

If we follow this logic, then white settlers would need to leave Australia, New Zealand, Africa, and all of the New World because their ancestors expelled, killed, or conquered the locals. Poles would be forced to leave Prussia for the east, where the Belorussians and Ukrainians would have to leave or accept Polish rule against their will. Chile would vacate its northern regions. Paraguay would regain its old lands at the expense of its neighbors. Spain would lose Al-Andalus. Greece would forcibly retake Izmir and Trabzon, if not all of Anatolia.

actually, we'd all just go back to bless the rains down in AAAAA-FRICAAAAA, because autochthony is a LIE

 

[Cheetah]

7 billion people living in Kenya and Tanzania? That's got to be social!

 

[Lord of Elves]

Was German. Why should almost the entire population of the oblast' be forced to leave or join a foreign state against their will (and the will of that state)? Why would the Germans want to govern a bunch of Russians?

If we follow this logic, then white settlers would need to leave Australia, New Zealand, Africa, and all of the New World because their ancestors expelled, killed, or conquered the locals. Poles would be forced to leave Prussia for the east, where the Belorussians and Ukrainians would have to leave or accept Polish rule against their will. Chile would vacate its northern regions. Paraguay would regain its old lands at the expense of its neighbors. Spain would lose Al-Andalus. Greece would forcibly retake Izmir and Trabzon, if not all of Anatolia.

I am not arguing that the above should happen, as no one is seriously discussing a repatriation of the Kaliningrad Oblast to Germany. However, we can acknowledge that the Germans are for all intents and purposes the rightful owners of that land and not insist that the current inhabitants be expelled, in the same way that we can acknowledge that yeah, the Americas probably really belong to the Native Americans, but no one's going to force the whites to leave.

Outside of that, however, we should all be more concerned about how close the Russian bear is to Europe now that there is no German buffer

 

[madviking]

I think it actually means you're Israeli since you're the occupying force (in terms of the comparison that is).

even better!

 

[Gucumatz]

Shouldn't you be calling some of the posters ehre anti-slavics then ?

 

[madviking]

I'm both Russian and German... so uh maybe not.

 

[Dachs]

I'm both Russian and German... so uh maybe not.

silly me I thought you were American

 

[Mouthwash]

Weren't millions of Germans chased out of different countries in Europe to ensure Germany could never have claims to them or imperial ambition again?