Slavery & 19th Century Morality (split from TIL: Today I Learned)

[Traitorfish]

It feels like this haggling over numbers is missing my basic point, that slaves were not expected to outlive their "useful" life, and so no great provisions were taken for their infirmity.

 

[Lexicus]

Common sense now, even better. Can I hear self-evident truth? Anybody?

How many specimens of proslavery literature do you have at your house?

 

[Naskra]

How many specimens of proslavery literature do you have at your house?

This is rather irrelevant to mortality statistics, wouldn't you say?

 

[Yeekim]

Jefferson was also definitely a rapist, who raped at least one of his slaves.

If one has a bunch of slaves, having one to sleep with, instead of having her pick cotton or smth, hardly counts as being somehow extra evil in my book ... unless one is Marquis de Sade, or something.
I strongly suspect most of Jefferson's other female slaves would have changed places with Hemings in a hearbeat.
But reading on their affair I discovered that Jefferson had six children with her - and kept them as slaves!

Wth is wrong with people when they accuse the guy of "raping his slave" (read: having a mistress), yet gloss over **** like this?!?
EDIT: Scratch that, it appears they were freed as they came of age.

 

[Lexicus]

This is rather irrelevant to mortality statistics, wouldn't you say?

Oh, let's not pretend you were making a point about mortality statistics.

If one has a bunch of slaves, having one to sleep with, instead of having her pick cotton or smth, hardly counts as being somehow extra evil in my book

Good to know m8.

But reading on their affair I discovered that Jefferson had six children with her - and kept them as slaves!

Wth is wrong with people when they accuse the guy of "raping his slave" (read: having a mistress), yet gloss over sh*t like this?!?
EDIT: Scratch that, it appears they were freed as they came of age.

We don't gloss over it. In fact, raping your female slaves was a tried-and-true method of increasing your property, and the reason the US had the "one drop rule" was precisely so that offspring produced by these liaisons would still be slaves, no messy questions asked. Slave women often intentionally aborted their pregnancies to avoid bringing people into existence in the condition of slavery.

 

[Naskra]

Oh, let's not pretend you were making a point about mortality statistics.

I wasn't. The point was about your pretense of scholarship.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I wasn't. The point was about your pretense of scholarship.

I think the point was more about your pretenses, and was well made.

 

[Naskra]

I think the point was more about your pretenses, and was well made.

My pretense is that the poster's "consensus of historians" does not exist. I am confident of this. Do your own googling.

 

[Synobun]

What point are you trying to prove, Naskra? As an outside observer it seems like you're trying to imply that the slaves had it good and Lexicus is lying. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Lexicus]

My pretense is that the poster's "consensus of historians" does not exist. I am confident of this. Do your own googling.

I mean, perhaps ironically, I am aware of this. Of course, in this particular case the "consensus of historians" was basically a shorthand for "only cranks, assorted racists, and neoconfederates argue otherwise"

 

[Naskra]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

xx
You are wrong. I said not one word about slavery. I only said that Mr. Lx was making a broad claim that he could not support (which he now seems to admit in some confusing doubly-ironic manner). He was simply making **** up (it gets tiresome). If you dig into the numbers, you will find:
A) the data is scanty
B) Whites died at higher rates than blacks from diseases endemic to Africa (malaria, yellow fever) Otherway round in the north.
C) the scanty data is also rather spotty.
D) the censuses show a very healthy growth in the slave population

 

[Synobun]

That... doesn't sound like I'm wrong.

 

[Naskra]

trying to imply that the slaves had it good and Lexicus is lying

I am maintaining neither of these things, that's why your'e wrong.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I am maintaining neither of these things, that's why your'e wrong.

Doesn't really sound like he's wrong.

 

[Farm Boy]

So, at three pages we're well into the CFC holding pattern of arguing over if anyone takes partial issue with total bull...feathers whether or not they're disagreeing with that it if they wholeheartedly embrace the deepest horrors of mankind? That sounds like a familiar form of cosmic bonghitting boredom.

 

[Naskra]

The consensus of historians is that slaves in the US had a low life expectancy because they had to do hard manual labor from sunup to sundown and mostly didn't get enough nutrition or rest.

The above statement is false. That is my only claim. Keyword = consensus.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The above statement is false. That is my only claim. Keyword = consensus.

That was already acknowledged.

I mean, perhaps ironically, I am aware of this. Of course, in this particular case the "consensus of historians" was basically a shorthand for "only cranks, assorted racists, and neoconfederates argue otherwise"

Of course, the acknowledgement might be something you preferred to overlook for <reasons>.

 

[Estebonrober]

Slaves suffered extremely high mortality. Half of all slave infants died during their first year of life, twice the rate of white babies. And while the death rate declined for those who survived their first year, it remained twice the white rate through age 14. As a result of this high infant and childhood death rate, the average life expectancy of a slave at birth was just 21 or 22 years, compared to 40 to 43 years for antebellum whites. Compared to whites, relatively few slaves lived into old age.

A major contributor to the high infant and child death rate was chronic undernourishment. Slaveowners showed surprisingly little concern for slave mothers' health or diet during pregnancy, providing pregnant women with no extra rations and employing them in intensive field work even in the last week before they gave birth. Not surprisingly, slave mothers suffered high rates of spontaneous abortions, stillbirths, and deaths shortly after birth. Half of all slave infants weighed less than 5.5 pounds at birth, or what we would today consider to be severely underweight.

Infants and children were badly malnourished. Most infants were weaned early, within three or four months of birth, and then fed gruel or porridge made of cornmeal. Around the age of three, they began to eat vegetables, soups, potatoes, molasses, grits, hominy, and cornbread. This diet lacked protein, thiamine, niacin, calcium, magnesium, and vitamin D, and as a result, slave children often suffered from night blindness, abdominal swellings, swollen muscles, bowed legs, skin lesions, and convulsions.

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtid=2&psid=3040

I mean it wasn't that hard to find some information on it and also it fits common sense especially for large plantations.

 

[Lexicus]

B) Whites died at higher rates than blacks from diseases endemic to Africa (malaria, yellow fever)

lmao

D) the censuses show a very healthy growth in the slave population

Yes, slaves were treated very well Naskra, very well

 

[Takhisis]

The consensus of historians is that slaves in the US had a low life expectancy because they had to do hard manual labor from sunup to sundown and mostly didn't get enough nutrition or rest.

The above statement is false. That is my only claim. Keyword = consensus.

Alright, I'll go to IGN and get a walkthrough in .txt format. To prove that that is not the consensus you need to start by proving altrighternative viewpoints that can be considered as valid and as not part of that consensus.