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Slaves, Hostages and Prisoners of War

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Dancing Hoskuld, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    Ok then, go ahead. I forgot that this will be implented over time :crazyeye:
     
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Might I suggest the following chain of development events:
    1) Finish with CCs. As this forms a lot of great generic underlying modifiers for units this was a good place to start. Implement.

    2) Civics (and WORLDVIEW buildings only) should be reviewed. I think you'll find that a quick review of our civics will make for an easy and greatly impacting place to include a great deal of generic sweeping modifiers that then helps, like the CCs to give us a platform upon which the rest of the modifiers will make more sense.

    3) Units: You're right about the way to calculate them but I'd leave most of them to their Combat Class modifiers to determine things. Try to modify units based more than anything on their ROLE. If the unit is designed to capture (beyond the considerations already given to their combat classes) or slay outright, represent this with a +/- modifier on the unit. If it's more or less likely to be able to resist (beyond the considerations already given to their combat classes) then assign a modifier to represent. If you find yourself shrugging when thinking about a particular unit it's probably best to leave it unmodified. If you find the cause for modifier is something that may not have been previously considered when considering the combat class but should be considered there instead, be open to adjusting the CC again.

    4) Promotions as you stated

    5) Wonders and National Wonders

    6) Specific buildings



    Oh... you'd asked me about similar unfinished mechanisms and I ran across workers... there's still a bit to do there to modify worker native abilities (varying particularly among the different types of animal assisted workers) and flesh out promos too. So that would be the next project up after this one if your up to it! ;) That project came to a full stop mid-development a while back and needs to eventually be fleshed out here.
     
  3. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    Ok, makes sense as well!
    But I haven't fully understood what you are trying to say in the units part.
    So you would let most units as they are (only influenced by their CCs) but edit these few that deserve more/less capturing chance? Like UUs and such?
     
  4. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  5. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    AH well, this will surely decrease the amount of work. Great! And any idea how to calculate the current (based on CCs) modifiers easily? Could you use the UNITCOMBATCLASS_MELEE and such as variables so you can automate the calculation with the help of your google doc or do I have to do it per hand?

    And yes, these workers would be a cool new project after this one!
     
  6. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Well... you COULD but it might take a bit to setup as you'd have to make links and such. Databases tend to handle that better than spreadsheets would. And my understanding of database programming ends at Access which is pretty much useless here given how many tags a given info often maintains overloads the tables there. It could be done to set things up yes but... ugh. I gave up on that in preference for making actual modding headway.

    For units... I'd think only in terms of modifiers until you see them in-game and something doesn't seem to fit about the compiled values you'll see on trained units manifested into the game there.
     
  7. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    So you wouldn't use a spreadsheet for units at all? I think that sounds fine at first... I will make a table for the civics (If I can acutally make a table :mischief:) later today.
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Well... I WOULD but I wouldn't worry about using it to add up their final tallies so much as just to track their individual modifiers.

    When I design I'm not usually as concerned about the final results because I'll get to see those in-game. If I've been rational and reasonable with all the modifiers that add into the whole then I'll usually be pleased with the overall results.

    I know that some units were historically trained specifically to capture units - those I'd give a healthy modifier of something like 20-25% to. But most units were multi-purpose - few were specified for capturing or NOT capturing. Extra Resistance may be suitable for highly loyal units such as perhaps knights and crusaders. I'd think about each unit and try to eliminate the considerations that have already been made when assigning values to the combat classes those units possess. This would leave few units really with individual modifiers I think. That said, training and skill development (promos) would allow the player to determine some units to be more or less useful for capturing or for resisting. I can see Criminals having a very strong capture resistance line that stems from a willingness to commit suicide rather than accept capture among some organizations. That doesn't mean all criminals would be this way though... some would be quite spineless and willing to accept capture.

    To that end... maybe we should have a set of interrogation missions that can be used on captives (they'd have to be able to 'remember' (store on the unit data) the last player that owned the unit that became a captive to pull this off of course.) We could then interrogate them for espionage against that player... The method of interrogation (being torture or other method) could determine the outcome in combination with the old unit's capture resistance considered as well. Could be an interesting eventual development. Could also be some diplomatic maneuvers we could develop with captives too. Trade them back for a diplo bonus or for captives they are holding and when returned, the original unit is recovered... hmm...

    Perhaps a little premature to bring these ideas up now though.
     
  9. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    StolenRays has some interesting stuff on things to do after you have captured units, including prisoner exchange and ransom. Both need to know where the captive came from. So there may be some useful stuff there. He does dll code.
     
  10. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Yeah, I'd think you'd HAVE to implement it in the dll so that you could get the unit to recall the old unit it once was. At some point it might be worthwhile to integrate the whole captive mechanism not only into the dll but into a cohesive package that considers all the different ways we can capture as well. But when I do figure it's time to go down this road I'll certainly be happy to take a look at StolenRay's methods. I think I can imagine much of it offhand but he may have some more good ideas along those lines too.
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    You can store information from Python in the save game it is just that every time I have tried I have broken stuff.
     
  12. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    Here is a list of our current civics:

    Spoiler :
    Goverment
    Spoiler :
    Anarchism............None
    Chiefdom-............Chiefdom
    Despotism............Bronze Working
    Monarchy.............Monarchy
    Republic.............Democracy
    Theocracy............Theology
    Democracy............Representative Democracy
    Totalitarism.........Facism
    Technocracy..........Virtual Society



    Rule
    Spoiler :
    Obedience............None
    City States..........Masonry
    Magistrates..........Code of Law
    Meriocracy...........Meriocracy
    Bureaucracy..........Civil Service
    Vassalage............Vassalage
    Confederacy..........Leadership
    Federal..............Rifling
    Martial Law..........Facism
    Grid.................Computer Netsworks
    Mind Control.........Thought Scanning



    Power
    Spoiler :
    Strongman............None
    Matriarchy...........Matriarchy
    Patriacrry...........Patriarchy
    Junta................Bronze Working
    Souvereignity........Monarchy
    Legislature..........Democracy
    Divinge Right........Divine Right
    Seperation of Powers.Representative Democracy
    Single Party.........Facism



    Society
    Spoiler :
    Primitive............None
    Tribal...............Tribalism
    Caste................Caste System
    Bourgeois............Aristocracy
    Proletariat..........Democracy
    Feudal...............Feudalism
    Egalitarian..........Liberal
    Nationalist..........Nationalism
    Marxist..............Marxism
    Corpor-Nation........Megacorporations


    Economy
    Spoiler :
    Communalism..........None
    Barter...............Barter
    Subsistence..........Pottery
    Trade................Trade
    Guilds...............Guilds
    Mercantile...........Mercantillism
    Free Markets.........Economy
    Corporist............Industrialism
    Planned..............Communism
    Regulated............Applied Economy
    Green................Ecology



    Military
    Spoiler :
    Militia...............None
    Banditry............
    Tribal Warfare........Tribalism
    Conscription..........Military Training
    Mercenaries...........Currency
    Pacifism..............Philosophy
    Vassalage.............Feudalism
    Volunteer Army........Social Contract
    Unmanned Warfare......Military Robotics
    Cloning...............Gene Enhancement
    Time Drafting.........Time Travel



    Religion
    Spoiler :
    Irreligion.............None
    Folklore...............Ritualism
    Divine Cult............Mysticism
    Prophets...............Divination
    State Religion.........Monotheism
    Free Church............Papacy
    Intolerant.............Fundamentalism
    Secular................Humanism
    Atheism................Compulsonary Education



    Welfare
    Spoiler :
    Survival...............None
    Charitiy...............Trade
    Church.................Meditation
    Public Work............City Planning
    Private................Urury
    Subsidized.............Representative Democracy
    Corporate..............Assembly Line
    Socialized.............Labor Union
    Paradise...............Ecological Engineering
    Superhuman.............Homo Superior



    Religion
    Spoiler :
    Garbage Anywhere........None
    Burn Garbage............Fire Making
    Waste to Sea............Seafaring
    Landfills...............Sanitation
    Waste Import............Economy
    Waste Export............Economy
    Waste to Energy.........Industrialism
    Off-Planet Duming.......Astronautics


    Immigration
    Spoiler :
    No Boarders.............None
    Open Boarders...........Alphabet
    Closed Boarders.........Alphabet
    Skilled Workers only....Applied Economics
    Secure Boarders.........Applied Economics



    Education
    Spoiler :
    Ignorance...............None
    Oral Tradition..........Oral Tradition
    Written Tradition.......Writing
    Military Tradition......Military Training
    Religenous Training.....Theology
    Apprenticeship..........Guilds
    Corporate Education.....Corporations
    Compulsory Education....Compulsory Education
    Propaganda..............Facism
    E-Education.............Computer Networks
    Timetrave Education.....Time Travel



    Language
    Spoiler :
    No Language.............None
    Native Language.........Language
    Trade Language..........Trade
    Interprets..............Writing
    Language Education......Compulsory Education
    Universal Translator....Universal Translator



    Agriculture
    Spoiler :
    No Agriculture..........None
    Subsistence Agriculture.Agriculture
    Agricultural Guilds.....Guilds
    Corporate Agriculture...Corporation
    Privatized Agriculture..Economics
    Subsidized Agriculture..Representative Democracy
    State-run Agriculture...Communism
    Green Agriculture.......Ecology



    Currency
    Spoiler :
    No Currency.............None
    Metals..................Mining
    Coinage.................Currency
    Banknote................Banking
    Paper Money.............Printing Press
    Gold Standard...........Nationalism
    FIAT Currency...........Replaceable Parts
    Credit..................Applied Economics
    Digital.................Communication Networks



    Labor
    Spoiler :
    Unorganized Labor........None
    Community Labor..........Tribalsim (or was it moved to Community?)
    Skilled Labor............Currency
    Serf Labor...............Feudalism
    Capitalist...............Corporation
    Centralized Labor........Marxism
    Socialized Labor.........Labor Union
    Post Labor...............Androids


    I'm too tired to have a closer look now. But I'd say that we could skip Labor, Currency, Agriculture, Language, Waste, Economy and maybe Immigration. They shouldn't add anything to Capturing. Do you agree with me here?
    I must admit that I have very little knowledge about all these Civics. If there is someone who knows a lot, please suggest something! It doesn't need to be a whole list, and it can always be adjusted, just don't be shy.
     
  13. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    I think Labour and Agriculture both badly need options that emphasize slaves, which then give a capture bonus. As they stand I agree with you, you can ignore them...
     
  14. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    Oh, that is true of course! I forgot that capturing would be increased when you badly need slaves.
     
  15. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    First set of civics. I bet you have A LOT of objections, so please tell me :mischief:

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4
    Civic Capture Chance Capture Resistance Notes
    Government
    Anarchism -20 -30
    Chiefdom -5 -5
    Despotism -10 -15
    Monarchy 10 5
    Republic 10 15
    Theocracy -10 20
    Democracy 15 25
    Totalitarism -15 -20
    Technocracy 0 10
    Rule
    Obedience 20 -20
    City States 5 10
    Magistrates 0 -5
    Meritocracy -10 20
    Bureaucracy -15 -15
    Vassalage 25 -10
    Confederacy 15 5
    Federal -10 0
    Martial Law 10 15
    Grid 0 50 Needs further discussion
    Mind Control 30 100
    Power
    Strongman 10 10
    Matriarchy 20 -10
    Patriacrry 10 10
    Junta -20 20
    Souvereignity 0 -10
    Legislature 10 -10
    Divinge Right 10 30
    Seperation of Powers 0 0 was -30/-20 before TB suggested 0/0 (Needs further discussion)
    Single Party -0 0 was -30/50 before TB suggested 0/0 (Needs further discussion)
    Society
    Primitive -10 -10
    Tribal -10 20
    Caste 10 20
    Bourgeois 0 -30
    Proletariat 30 -20
    Feudal 20 10
    Egalitarian 0 -20
    Nationalist 20 30
    Marxist 10 10
    Corpor-Nation 0 0


    As I said, I have not much knowledge about civics. Most choices were made based on how strict the form of goverment is. If you add all starting civics together, they even out at -40% Chance but also -40% Resistance, so if these two units fight against each other, the standard value is used.
    Comments are very appreciated!
     
  16. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    And the second set:

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4
    Civic Capture Chance Capture Resistance Notes
    Economy
    Communalism 0 0
    Barter 0 0
    Subsistence 0 0
    Trade 10 0
    Guilds 0 0
    Mercantile 0 0
    Free Markets 0 0
    Corporist 0 0
    Planned 0 0
    Regulated 0 0
    Green 0 0
    Military
    Militia -20 -20
    Banditry 30 -15
    Tribal Warfare 10 20
    Conscription 10 -10
    Mercenaries 30 -30
    Pacifism 20 -40
    Vassalage 0 10
    Volunteer Army 20 30
    Unmanned Warfare -50 25
    Cloning -30 50
    Religion
    Irreligion 0 0
    Folklore 0 0
    Divine Cult 20 10
    Prophets 10 0
    State Religion 0 10
    Free Church 0 0
    Intolerant -50 30
    Secular 0 0
    Atheism -10 -10
    Education
    Ignorance 0 0
    Oral Tradition 0 0
    Written Tradition 0 0
    Military Tradition 10 15
    Religenous Training 5 10
    Apprenticeship 0 0
    Corporate Education 0 0
    Compulsory Education 0 0
    Propaganda 15 25
    E-Education 0 0


    Welfare, Garbage, Language, Currency, Labor shouldn't influence Capturing chance at all IMO.
    Agriculture... MAYBE. But adding capturing chances/restitences there seems a bit redundant.
     
  17. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Grid is basically Big Brother in an Orwellian 1984 type of surveillance and monitoring of its people.
     
  18. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    Despotism/Theocracy/Totalitarian: you are assuming these civics will be unpopular with outsiders and their expectations of their treatment under them will be low. Such attitudes (imo) were quite rare prior to the 20th century, and there are heaps of exceptions even now (eg. Tibet is a theocracy). I would argue for no more than 5-15% resistances - if any.

    By the same token, I would expect the more ideological the civic, the more emphasis on trying to take captives there would be. So I would argue for bonuses to capture for Despotism, Theocracy, Totalitarian and Chiefdom (and Monarchy which you've already got), no modifier on Republic (republics can be very liberal eg. Athens or very regimented eg. Rome) and penalties for Democracy and Technocracy.
     
  19. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    @Yudishtira: Thanks for the feedback. So more something like this?

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4
    Civic Capture Chance Capture Resistance Notes
    Goverment
    Anarchism -20 -30
    Chiefdom 5 5
    Despotism 10 -5
    Monarchy 10 20
    Republic 0 -20
    Theocracy -10 30
    Democracy -20 -25
    Totalitarism 15 -10
    Technocracy 40 -30
     
  20. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    :goodjob: except:
    Theocracy +10% capture chance; 5-15% resistance
    Technocracy 0 to -15% capture chance
     

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