So Long Belgium?

[Bill3000]

I'm all for breaking Spain apart, if it can be done peacefully. But frankly I don't understand what value people see in preserving regional "culture" and creating new nations with that purpose. Culture changes, and not all ancient cultures can be preserved. And why should they, anyway? Not to mention that national and even regional "culture", "folklore" and other such things are usually just the creation of politicians and ideologues while building the tools they use to control modern states.

Because they want to.

 

[GuitarHero]

To whoever said Spain should break up, why didn't you make your own Thread about this topic? We're supposed to be talking about Belgium. Argh, what do I care? Go ahead, break up Spain, like that's going to help Juan Carlos I. Geez.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Agree. Autonomy, sure, but independence would be so impractical for most of those regions. I can't really see how independence of for example the Basque territory would preserve its culture. If they have their own government, there will still be non-Basques coming there, there will still be Castilian and international television, and McDonalds doesn't plan on leaving either. Sure, they could have school books in their language or something, but they'd still have to learn Castilian and English, because most of the job opportunities for youngsters will probably be outside the Basque territory.

So..it's all just useless.

well right now i'm pretty sure that basques have to learn spanish and english as there first two languages before they can learn basque in school. That's what i'm talking about. Sure there's always going to be international tele and Mcdonolds on ever corner but that ain't the point.

However let's maKE another topic on this as this one's on belgium.

 

[aronnax]

If everytiny group of ethinc group demand independence, the world would have 10000 countries. Why is it that the thousands of ethnic groups in India, China and Indonesia can stay together and a few ethnic groups in Europe cant?

 

[sourboy]

Europe is uniting, and these fools wanna split? Bah! Send half to France and half to the Netherlands.

 

[aelf]

Why is it that the thousands of ethnic groups in India, China and Indonesia can stay together

They can't. In fact, blood is regularly shed. I see you haven't really taken the advice to read up and learn about things around you.

For that matter, Singapore's racial harmony isn't that harmonious either.

 

[sirdanilot]

Basques don't have the majority in their country. Flemish do, so if they want to they should get independance. Then wallonia and the eastern german speaking can decide for themselves if they want to be independant or not.

It's extremely unlikely those territories will be incorporated into France or Netherlands or luxembourg or germany for that matter. Flanders hasn't been part of holland since like the seventeenth century, wallonia has never even been a part of france I think. I'm not sure about that though, too lazy to check.
The german part of Belgium has been part of Germany before wwI and a short time during WWII, but I still think it should never be annexed by germany. Losing that area was their punishment for WWI, it should not be given back to them. But if any part of Belgium would be annexed by another country, this is the most likely.

Also something dating from WWI, every minority should get their own autonomous state. Guess what happened to Czechoslovakia? And Jugoslavia? They broke up, because they weren't one group of people with one culture. It was just a collection of several minorities. Belgium is not different. Flemish culture is not the same as Wallonian culture. So Flanders should get independance in my opinion. Although one could argue they should be part of the netherlands, no inhabitant of Flanders will tell you they want to be part of the Netherlands, so it should be an autonomous state.

 

[sourboy]

Hmm, well, if they won't join their cultural "parental" lands... send in the Irish. Reform Celtia!!

 

[sirdanilot]

Do you consider England and USA as countries with the same culture?

If you don't, then it would be hypocrite for you to say Flanders should be part of the Netherlands.

And cultural 'parental' lands, again: Would USA consider joining England again? No, so flanders wouldn't consider joining the Netherlands again.

 

[Bill3000]

Flanders hasn't been part of holland since like the seventeenth century, wallonia has never even been a part of france I think. I'm not sure about that though, too lazy to check.

Nope. Belgium got its independence from the Netherlands in the 1830s; Flanders was absolutely part of it. As for Wallonia, it, as well as the rest of the lowlands, was part of Napoleonic France.

 

[sirdanilot]

Ah thank you. But still 1830 is like 177 years ago, so no Flemish person considers himself Dutch anymore.
And because all of the lowlands were part of France back then, Wallonia is just as good a part of France as the Netherlands.

That's why I think Belgium should split up and they should both be separate countries.

 

[Bill3000]

I could probably point out to the [wiki]Greater Netherlands[/wiki] movement, though it has fascist overtones...

 

[luiz]

I could probably point out to the [wiki]Greater Netherlands[/wiki] movement, though it has fascist overtones...

According to that article, 2007 polls indicate that 2/3 of the dutch population would welcome union with Flanders... that's interesting.

 

[sirdanilot]

Yeah, I would welcome it too, as I said earlier, but it will simply never happen. Because the Flemish don't want to, and I stated reasons for that earlier.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Flemish people are increasingly fascistic anyway. And the fact that they still find people abroad to support them is totally beyond me. I mean come on, have you see what's happening in the Brussels-Hal-Vilvorde corridor? They ban residents from speaking French! And the point of this is that in making flee these people, they would make it a pure Flemish blood area and hence would supposedly give them a legitimacy to take over Brussels.

We're talking about the heart of Europe here. This is very serious.

 

[sourboy]

Do you consider England and USA as countries with the same culture?

If you don't, then it would be hypocrite for you to say Flanders should be part of the Netherlands.

And cultural 'parental' lands, again: Would USA consider joining England again? No, so flanders wouldn't consider joining the Netherlands again.

Interesting analogy, yet not very legitimate. The US has surpassed England, so they obviously wouldn't return to them. Now the other way around... could happen (and almost did).

Flanders has something to gain by joining the Netherlands, and let's face it - their gripe is with the French-cultured neighbors, not the Dutch ones. If they were to split up, their economies would plummet. Rejoining the Netherlands would be a smart move.

 

[luiz]

Flemish people are increasingly fascistic anyway. And the fact that they still find people abroad to support them is totally beyond me. I mean come on, have you see what's happening in the Brussels-Hal-Vilvorde corridor? They ban residents from speaking French! And the point of this is that in making flee these people, they would make it a pure Flemish blood area and hence would supposedly give them a legitimacy to take over Brussels.

We're talking about the heart of Europe here. This is very serious.

Well if they hate the walloons that much, fascists or not, it would make all the more sense to split.

BTW I'm surprised at the ammount of publicity this issue is receiving here. The two newspapers I subscribe both had an extensive analysis on the case, as did a weekly magazine that I just bought. Really surprising.

 

[philippe]

Flemish people are increasingly fascistic anyway. And the fact that they still find people abroad to support them is totally beyond me. I mean come on, have you see what's happening in the Brussels-Hal-Vilvorde corridor? They ban residents from speaking French! And the point of this is that in making flee these people, they would make it a pure Flemish blood area and hence would supposedly give them a legitimacy to take over Brussels.

We're talking about the heart of Europe here. This is very serious.

so i am a threat for the heart of europe?

 

[Fuzzz]

First off, I live in Flanders and I'm one of the few Flemish who's against the separation of Flanders and Wallonia. Our nation's motto is "Eendracht maakt Macht" (in dutch, "l'Union fait lla Force" in French, or "Strength through Unity" in English).

One of the main reasons Belgians are for a separation is because in the two parts of Belgium we speak a different language. Many people even claim that because we don't share the same laguage, our culture is not the same (no Belgian tv network, no Belgian newspaper). I think there are a lot of examples of nations to be found throughout the world though where different languages are spoken and where the people can get along (though the opposite is true as well).

Another reason Flemish people want to separate from Wallonnia is because Wallonia is economically not so strong as Flanders. With our many socialist services many people from the northern (Flemish) part think they have to pay for the social security and welfare for the southern (Walloon) part of Belgium. what people tend to forget though is that Wallonia had a blooming economy up until +-20 yrs and Flemish people would go from the most northern part of Belgium to the most southern part to find a job. When the steel and coal industry tumbled into pieces, many people lost their jobs in Wallonia and had/have to find one in Flanders.

In the article it said that politicians are struggling for over three months to create a government. This is because in Flanders the Christian Democrats (who are in a coalition with a Flemish nationalistic party) have won and in Wallonia the Liberal Democrats have won (for the first time in +-25 yrs it wasn't a Walloon socialist victory). The are now quarreling because the Flemish politicians want more Flemish autonomy, while this is not the most favorite topic for the Walloon people. Most of the arguementsabout separation are about Brussels which is in a Flemish (Dutch speaking) province (= +- state), but practically 80% of Brussels' inhabitans speak French.

If you read the entire post I hope I didn't bore you It will be easier for you to give an opinion about this difficult matter (although it's even too difficult for politicians and people who've lived here all of their lives). Below you see a map of Belgium (Flanders is yellowish, Wallonia is red, and Brussels capital is blue.)

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although it's even too difficult for politicians and people who've lived here all of their lives

^I don't want to hear any jokes about this...

 

[Che Guava]

Interesting analogy, yet not very legitimate. The US has surpassed England, so they obviously wouldn't return to them. Now the other way around... could happen (and almost did).

Errr...really? I must have missed that day in history class...