This would make the state under question and all its laws and policies illegitimate as a whole.
So socialism
- Thread starter Lohrenswald
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I dunno, seems like Qatar is doing okay, having gotten how many millions of immigrants vs their existing few hundred thousand citizens, over the span of a decade or so?
Lexicus
Deity
Qatar isn't a great example because their immigrants are mostly just guest workers, not proper immigrants. They don't have any political rights (although since Qatar is a monarchy I don't think people outside the royal family have meaningful political rights) nor is the idea that they will assimilate and become Qataris, afaik.
At the end of the day Europeans can talk like this about immigration because a Big Tribe that lets in immigrants (the USA) protects them from being eaten by another big country (Russia). Their puny little states and cultures might be overwhelmed by too many immigrants. Meanwhile Chad USA knows his culture and institutions are only enriched by immigrants.
Yes and no, for practical purposes. Any specific case, yes an outsider claiming that the restrictions are 'not a societal choice' or 'yes a societal choice' have a bit of a hurdle in proving it. I get no real opinion on whether (say) Singapore's immigrant restrictions are the will of the society. But as something that can happen, it's very easy for a society's exclusion policies to accurately reflect its will without it being something that's voted on.
We could also just use real-world examples. Piles of democratic countries restrict immigration and thus have a number of illegal immigrants who are making it their final destination. Same with non-democratic countries. We could test to see where people prefer to go and whether they are accepted despite government policy. This is confounded, obviously, by the fact that countries worth fleeing might border countries that are not democratic but have cultural cross-over.
Not entirely sure what to make of this, because, welcome to Western politics? It's legitimate because the people in power say so. This is how power works. It's not unique to corrupt (or even, theoretically, honest) autocracies.
Like I'm not being snarky here, I just don't know what to make of your response.
Exactly, I figured Qatar could be an example for, say, Greece: just treat immigrants as fourth-class citizens and/or slave labor.
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
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That's a really simple high level take on technology and the Amish. They don't think it makes you go to hell, they think it can come to dominate your life, causing you to live a less holy lifestyle. Which, I suppose then, may lead to a hell or Hell. Some Amish do internet business. They'll often wire up one room for that, and they'll put in hours at it, then unplug for the rest of the day. They generally still do send thier kids away to get a taste of society before they're allowed to stay as adults. Some do move out of thier communities, but thier retention is better than it was in the 50s. If you expect to live an intimate, interpersonal and socially based life. I think it's hard to argue the Amish don't outperform the rest of the country.
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
The point was regarding 19th-centry tech Amish and religious, Sabbath-following Jews. Apparently they aren't proselytizing groups, so they just are cool with other people falling for the spiritual traps their special knowledge saves them from? Otherwise, the point remains. Also, I've never seen Amish deal online on their own. Only sell to retailers in bulk who advertise Amish products or hire someone to do the online business for them.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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people are working on that handle right now.
one thing that doesn't change so quickly is how humans will handle their tools. you can't put faith in the decision of a machine being handled by humans who influence it though. literally can't, because any such faith in the context we're discussing is actually in the people still. if you take humans out of the equation entirely, it's a different matter, but we really want to solve aligning ai to our goals first before even considering that.
but sure, meanwhile you might as well use better/more predictive computer models to help making decisions. just won't necessarily make those decisions in peoples' best interest, same as the last few thousand years of history.
Senethro
Overlord
The way I had it explained to me was its less like a perfect moral code devised by a perfect omniscient entity they are required to follow to be awarded Good and Bad points, but more a contract between them and the deity of their people. Apparent workarounds are not at all cynical, but rather an alternate flavour of sincere engagement with their religious obligations.
Edit: This was a jewish perspective, not an amish one btw
I remember having a similar thought when we went out to restaurants after church. We'd not work, but would be happy to bribe people to work.
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
I guess I find it hard to imagine it being any worse than people on net. Not that it won't make any bad calls at all.
Either everyone needs to not turn on lights during the weekend, or the above implies that other gods exist simultaneously with different contracts for different groups.
I feel like this is a very Middle American thing to do.
Senethro
Overlord
This is a Christian influenced perspective, which may not be a useful way to judge and evaluate other religions.
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
No, this is the perspective of Jews since they claim that their god is monotheistic and exists alone. What about all the other people? No special contracts?
Senethro
Overlord
If you drop the idea of your deity as a completely perfect being and don't adopt the concept of capital T Truth as singular and having universality among all peoples, then there aren't really many issues with it.
You're bringing in Christian baggage.
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
I have no idea what you are talking about. This is about light switches and Amish drivers being silly as though a god wouldn't know or understand what's happening here to get around the rules. As far as universality amongst peoples goes, the Jews believe their god created everyone and everything. That's not Christian baggage. Christians drag major parts of Judaism along because their religion doesn't exist without it.
Lexicus
Deity
Just don't look up shunning at all. Because then it's easy to argue the Amish are outperformed by (most of) the rest of the country.
Senethro
Overlord
The likelihood is that you're looking at cultures older than the (Enlightenment/Rationality + Protestant Christian + possible varnish of atheism) mindset you've got and expecting them to make sense, and even believing that this kind of sense is functional, instead of aesthetic.
You're using the wrong mental toolkit is what I'm saying.
You're wrong to think that they are "cheating" at their religion. If you look at the effort and debate put into justifying or clarifying their takes, you'll see it is absolutely sincere engagement with the issue.
I wonder if there's a snapshot of how bad shunning is, overall? Would the differential rate of suicide (or suicide attempts) between normal society and shunned (or former) Amish people be a reasonable first-go? I can't imagine a more solid expression of emotional damage done by a social practice.
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