Socialism & Capitalism

[Traitorfish]

Just because some people are morons doesn't mean nuanced discussion can't be had by other participants. One of my favorite CFC threads happened several years ago in what had been little more than a socialism=Nazism troll thread that we managed to derail into an interesting discussion despite the OP.
Wonder if I can find that thread despite Xenforos hellish search function.....

EDIT: Aha! Found it!
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...iled-to-take-libertarianism-seriously.399318/

Aw, no, don't make me read things I wrote when I was 20, I'll cringe myself to death.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I miss Libertarians. They were much more fun than "race realists" before they got assimilated into the alt-right collective.

 

[Cutlass]

Just because some people are morons doesn't mean nuanced discussion can't be had by other participants. One of my favorite CFC threads happened several years ago in what had been little more than a socialism=Nazism troll thread that we managed to derail into an interesting discussion despite the OP.
Wonder if I can find that thread despite Xenforos hellish search function.....

EDIT: Aha! Found it!
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...iled-to-take-libertarianism-seriously.399318/

Some names in there I hadn't seen in a long time.

 

[onejayhawk]

I miss Libertarians. They were much more fun than "race realists" before they got assimilated into the alt-right collective.

Alt-right collective? The alt-right was never more than a tiny blogger group with minimal influence. When did it become a collective? Who would care if they did?

J

 

[Traitorfish]

Alt-right collective? The alt-right was never more than a tiny blogger group with minimal influence. When did it become a collective? Who would care if they did?

About the same time all the "libertarians" joined it en masse; the "libertarians" who joined it en masse.

They didn't even put down their "pls no tread" flags.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Alt-right collective? The alt-right was never more than a tiny blogger group with minimal influence. When did it become a collective? Who would care if they did?

J

My definition might be too broad.
Collective in the sense that alt-right is used as an umbrella term for right-wing millenials from pickup artists and nerds who are angry at women and the colored to outright neonazis, and all those groups influence each other and adjacent groups and form a continuum.
Maybe I should have used continuum instead of collective, but there's some weird Borg like assimilation going on that makes the term pretty murky. See the growing reactionary elements of the sceptic and new atheist community which used to be much more focused on Christian fundametalism during the Bush II era and now former figureheads Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are mostly obsessed with Islam and the regressive left and Harris seems to be receptive to Charles Murray's racist pseudoscience now that he runs in the same circles as Dave Rubin, Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think we can probably take "collective" here to mean something like "milieu" or "scene". Not quite a movement, but not just a coincidence of opinion, something with shared institutions and interests, or at least a high overlap thereof.

 

[Ironsided]

TF since this stupid 'like' system was implemented or whatever. I just want to let you know I will not like all of your posts. But I for the most parts do.

 

[onejayhawk]

About the same time all the "libertarians" joined it en masse; the "libertarians" who joined it en masse. They didn't even put down their "pls no tread" flags.

This is simple BS. Libertarians don't do anything en masse, particularly joining fringe movements. Nice pejorative pic, though. Was he a plant?

I think we can probably take "collective" here to mean something like "milieu" or "scene". Not quite a movement, but not just a coincidence of opinion, something with shared institutions and interests, or at least a high overlap thereof.

Quite right it was not a movement, nor close to one. Even scene is too much. Coincidence of opinion is certainly closer but not even that. There is not enough there to dignify it with a political name. More than anything, it's a ghost story with the scary parts exaggerated far out of proportion.

J

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I'm not sure that anyone except lolbertarians would take "sociaism" to mean "the collective replacing the individual".

Ignoring all the context I gave to score a cheap ideological point.
So Chomsky defined socialism as worker participation in work place policy. It is the same story all over again. I.e. the collective is the superlative is the dream. The superlative is what I named. That - meaning the impossibility of that superlative - means no failure of socialism, of course. But rather the plain realization that socialism is a matter of progress rather than hard aim. Whereas capitalism, while on principle just as much a matter of progress, is FAR closer to that allure of a hard aim than socialism is.
Eat that!

 

[Ajidica]

Aw, no, don't make me read things I wrote when I was 20, I'll cringe myself to death.

You think your posts were bad, I was still in high school!

 

[Berzerker]

About the same time all the "libertarians" joined it en masse; the "libertarians" who joined it en masse.

They didn't even put down their "pls no tread" flags.

The 1950s called, they want Joe McCarthy back

 

[onejayhawk]

The 1950s called, they want Joe McCarthy back

He's in California leading Antifa.

J

 

[adcarrymaokai]

About the same time all the "libertarians" joined it en masse; the "libertarians" who joined it en masse.

They didn't even put down their "pls no tread" flags.

The guy with the swastika flag should have asked his mom to iron it.

Also lol @ the wooden shield and the straw hat. These dudes are surely not fabulous.

 

[Lexicus]

I miss Libertarians. They were much more fun than "race realists" before they got assimilated into the alt-right collective.

If you talked to them long enough you could get them to out themselves as race-realists, every time.

 

[Traitorfish]

Ignoring all the context I gave to score a cheap ideological point.
So Chomsky defined socialism as worker participation in work place policy. It is the same story all over again. I.e. the collective is the superlative is the dream. The superlative is what I named. That - meaning the impossibility of that superlative - means no failure of socialism, of course. But rather the plain realization that socialism is a matter of progress rather than hard aim. Whereas capitalism, while on principle just as much a matter of progress, is FAR closer to that allure of a hard aim than socialism is.
Eat that!

Surely workers' self-management means less subordination to the collective, rather than greater? After all, in capitalism, a collective, the corporation, wields ultimate authority over its employees in the workplace, while in socialism, individuals, the workers, wield ultimate authority. The individuals must accept compromise, must strive towards consensus or accept majority-decisions, but that's an inevitable fact of inhabiting a planet with two or more sentient beings. Individualism is a question of how far the individual is sustained despite those necessary compromises.

 

[Berzerker]

If you talked to them long enough you could get them to out themselves as race-realists, every time.

I googled race realist and got different definitions, what is yours?

 

[Ajidica]

I googled race realist and got different definitions, what is yours?

The type of people who leap to the defense of South Africa and Rhodesia without prompting.

 

[Berzerker]

you mean systems of apartheid?

seems like a decidedly unlibertarian position

 

[Ajidica]

you mean systems of apartheid?

seems like a decidedly unlibertarian position

You would be surprised, but every self-described "Libertarian" I can remember on this forum* were strangely into defending Rhodesia and South Africa from the slightest of criticism.

*mainly Amadeus, Merkinball never really got beyond telling a disabled poster to get off their lazy butt and get a job.