holy king
Deity
yeah, i'm sure about that.
Solve the Problem of Evil
- Thread starter Gary Childress
- Start date
Mise
isle of lucy
I vaguely skimmed your discussions in this thread, so if it's already been addressed just say so and I'll re-read it, but surely God could have created us without the capacity to commit evil acts? There's plenty of things that I can't physically do, and there's plenty of things that I can't even conceive. For example, no matter how hard I try, I can't imagine what a 4-dimensional object might "look" like. Why didn't God make it so that, no matter how hard I try, I couldn't imagine how to carry out an evil act? Why couldn't God wire my brain differently, so that I could do everything that I currently do, except without the evil bits? I would be free to do anything else, just not evil stuff. I can live with that -- indeed, I do live like that. I don't think I've done anything evil (although, of course, I have sinned). But I've never murdered or raped someone. Surely it wouldn't be such a horrible, oppressive world, if I were not free to murder or rape people? What would I lose, if I were to lose the ability to perform those acts?
Well, do you intend to have children, or are you not merely benevolent?
Right! No argument.
Because the way free will actually is (as I see it), it is only by having the ability to do a bad thing, and then not doing it, (or conversely by doing a good act even if we have reasons not to want to) that we can truly be said to be morally good. Following our instincts if they lead us to do good doesn't really make us any better. The world wouldn't be a horrible oppressive place if you were somehow restrained from killing or raping people, but the loss of freedom that entailed would have real drawbacks.
(I can't really answer those who ask about what if free will existed but couldn't lead to people choosing evil. I honestly don't get how that is supposed to work. Anyways, given my view of God, if it doesn't work that way, that is because it can't.)
Mise
isle of lucy
If I had the ability to create a child that could commit no evil, I would do so.Well, do you intend to have children, or are you not merely benevolent?
Lot of children can't commit evil - because they lack the mental capacity to do so.
(Before you ask how exactly this fits with my view of evil as I explained in my last post, well, honestly, I don't know. I won't claim to have all the answers.)
Fayadi
Technocrat
You cannot have predestination and free-will at the same time. If God can foresee the future then this whole damn Universe has a predestined future. So Universe C example that you mentioned is an oxymoron.
No, it's not actually an oxymoron. There's no logical reason why you cannot have a universe entirely populated with wholly good people who have free will.
And I don't believe that Christianity presupposes that a person MUST commit evil if they have free will, else God does not have free will or must commit evil.
And I don't believe that Christianity presupposes that a person MUST commit evil if they have free will, else God does not have free will or must commit evil.
I can accept that one individual can have free will and always choose good, but I have a lot of trouble accepting that billions would.
There are arguments that this isn't the case (that have to do with God existing in time differently from us) although I don't really understand them and don't know how much I agree with them.
Mise
isle of lucy
I don't see any reason whatsoever for this to be true. It's just a bunch of words without meaning... Sorry...
"It's only by being able to travel forward in time that we can travel backwards in time."
It would work in the same way that not being able to think of a 4-dimensional object would work. Can you imagine what a 4D object might look like? Does it diminish your ability to think of 3-dimensional objects?
I can imagine a 4D object - it changes shape over time. Perhaps you mean more than that. But basically, as far as I can tell what you are saying is "it works in ways we cannot understand". Now when people apply this to God others (not saying you) call it a copout, but that's neither here nor there. My main point was that it isn't this way.
Mise
isle of lucy
I meant 4 spatial dimensions. If that's what you want to call 4D, then I'll just ask you to imagine a 5D object
No, it works in a way that I understand perfectly: I cannot imagine a 4- (or 5-) dimensional object, whereas I can imagine a 3-dimensional object. God didn't give me the ability to imagine a 4D object, but he did give me the ability to imagine a 3D object. God could have not given me the ability to imagine raping someone, whilst still giving me the ability to imagine hugging someone.
Fayadi
Technocrat
Having free-will means that you can do whatever things you want. You are not programmed to do certain things nor limited to other things. Having free-will means the things that you can do has unlimited possibilities, which includes good, bad or neither.
His example is an oxymoron as he is using the concept of Predestination and Free-will in the same example. Those 2 are totally contradicting concept.
Oh, I see what you mean. Well, in that case, if we could only imagine hugging someone and not raping them, we would not greatly benefit by hugging them.
Of course you can have unlimited possibilities, but having free will does not mean you have to do all of those possibilities. Surely an omniscient being can create a universe in which all sapient beings choose not to do evil.
Mise
isle of lucy
I don't follow... I couldn't rape my mum -- I doubt I could even imagine raping her (I'm not going to try for the sake of this discussion...) but I still benefit from hugging her...
Lets assume that I "could" imagine raping her, but "merely" don't imagine it, and never, ever, in a million, squillion years, would imagine it. What would I lose from not being able to do that?
The possibility that you could do her any sort of harm (the exact kind doesn't matter) exists, though.
Mise
isle of lucy
The exact kind doesn't matter, so lets stick with rape. Why is it necessary for me to be able to imagine raping my mother?
So that there is moral value in not raping her. So that the only reason you make the decision isn't that you cannot imagine an alternative.
(And the exact form of evil does matter if there are some things you can imagine doing to some people, and some you can't. But it doesn't matter in the sense that you can imagine doing anything evil at all.)
(And the exact form of evil does matter if there are some things you can imagine doing to some people, and some you can't. But it doesn't matter in the sense that you can imagine doing anything evil at all.)
Fayadi
Technocrat
There is a simple typo that could create misunderstanding here.
Originally, I said
Having free-will means the things that you do has unlimited possibilities, which includes good, bad or neither.
when I meant
Having free-will means the things that you can do has unlimited possibilities, which includes good, bad or neither.
I missed a very important key word (typo).
Programming humans not to do evil is basically limiting "unlimited possibilities".
Even in a world of free-will like ours. 2 people with good intentions with different philosophy can have 2 different conflicting views to solve a problem. This shows that conflict exists even within good intentioned people. What makes you think restricting all evil will be not be artificially restricting unlimited possibilities?
Similar threads
