Stanford rapist only gets 3 months

Thanks for laying it out that concise.
And man - am I alone in thinking that this is freaking insane? Not in an exaggerated metaphorical way but actually god-dame insane? Such a thing just - shouldn't exist in a rich Western nation. It's mental and diabolical.
Nope, you're definitely not the only one. Somehow people managed, and still manage, to justify this to system themselves, and I think every step along the path to insanity seemed to make sense at the time. To think I didn't even mention civil asset forfeiture (we're not as big on property rights as it seems), or the fact that drug violations exclude people from federal student aid without which attending college is virtually impossible, or the way minor violations to poor people who can't pay them result in them cycling into and out of jail with the resulting fine increasing at each step, and so on and so forth.

Now in this particular case, the two-tiered nature of the "justice" system is really obvious, hence the outcry. A defendant who is poor enough to not be able to afford a lawyer will have a public defender, who is usually operating on a shoestring budget and with such a large caseload that he or she can spend only a matter of minutes looking at the case. The result is that the defendant would be pressured into taking a plea bargain, which well over 90% of them do. Were the defendant foolish enough to go to trial, the trial would be very lopsided and he'd probably get the maximum sentence or close to it.

But if the defendant is a rich kid at Stanford, he can call Daddy, who will hire a high-powered criminal defense lawyer who will get the trial dragged out as long as possible, in order to dissect every trivial detail of the case in order to make the victim seem less reliable. This would normally result in the victim dropping the case in order to stop being revictimized and move on with her life. What was highly unusual about this case is that the victim actually held on and kept fighting, and that the case was solid enough that not even an expensive legal team could cause it to fall apart at trial. Brock Turner got unlucky - most rape victims can't even bring themselves to charge the rapist, let alone hold on against a sustained legal onslaught for well over a year, and much less write an eloquent statement detailing exactly what happened and what the experience looks like from the victim's perspective.

Of course the defense lawyer was still able to spin the "good kid who made a mistake" angle well enough to get the judge to give Turner a rather lenient sentence. Still, if we were to somehow get a random sample of 1000 rapes by defendants rich enough to hire a good lawyer, this would turn out to easily be in the top 5% in terms of legal consequences for the rapist. Turner's assumption that he would get away with the rape was totally justified. He just happened to rape a particularly strong-willed woman and get caught in the act; he'd have gotten away scot-free if it hadn't been for both of those factors.
 
Personally I think doing away with private attorneys and giving everyone a state funded attorney is the answer. Although my opinion would probably be considered radical by most.
 
Personally I think doing away with private attorneys and giving everyone a state funded attorney is the answer. Although my opinion would probably be considered radical by most.

Public Defenders are already overworked enough as is, seriously the case loads some have to take is absurd.
 
If the private system is done away with, most of the private lawyers would become public.

Pay the public defendants more so it would be a more lucrative thing to do, but pay them all the same. This way, having a rich daddy shouldn't work in your favor, and being broke shouldn't work against you.
 
I know. But is there any evidence that the sentence was outside of guidelines? That the maximum is different is besides the point. That is exactly what minimums are for. Maybe the state laws aren't harsh enough. Maybe the liberals should admit they want more lbs of flesh in these situations and change the law. But sacking a judge simply because a non sympathetic perp got less than he might have when we're confronted with an extremely sympathetic victim? These are situations in which the independence of judicial tradition is stressed. I get it. I watched people very very angry about O.J. Much angrier than this even.

I like how you draw the usual political line on this. Guess that makes it clear where your sympathies lie. #teamwhite
 
They're with the person I called sympathetic. Guess you're not into independent judiciaries and favor trial by popular rage? Got some Trump boyz you might like to meet.

I mean, in that quote I said the O.J. trial went the right wayx but your trolling has suferred on quality as of late. Of course I have biases. You feeling alrite?
 
I'm sure you consider the boy to have trolled the emperor with no clothes too... but the emperor really had no clothes on.

Seems like being angry at the sentence and demanding lbs of flesh isn't just a liberal thing, but whatever. Keep your biases and I'll keep pointing them out if I like.

We all know how it goes: Rural > urban; poor > liberal elite; white > everyone else - probably in that order.
 
Ok chief. We tighten up sentencing guidelines then. We certainly wouldn't have any evidence around who that hurts most. Rapists and criminals. Simple rite?
 
Farm Boy said:
Guess you're not into independent judiciaries and favor trial by popular rage?

Well, speaking for myself I take a rather dim view of judges turning the justice system into a Good Old Boys Club.
 
They're with the person I called sympathetic. Guess you're not into independent judiciaries and favor trial by popular rage? Got some Trump boyz you might like to meet.

I mean, in that quote I said the O.J. trial went the right wayx but your trolling has suferred on quality as of late. Of course I have biases. You feeling alrite?
We are into judiciary independence and even into judicial discretion, but judicial discretion only goes so far. If Turner had been sentenced to three years that would be quite lenient, but not so much as to provoke mass rage.

Who knows, maybe he was attempting restorative justice, but cases like this are grossly inapplicable for restorative justice.

Are you drunk? Your spelling suddenly became terrible.
Ok chief. We tighten up sentencing guidelines then. We certainly wouldn't have any evidence around who that hurts most. Rapists and criminals. Simple rite?
It generally takes six months for a person to get passed the depression stage of prison and into a stage where they start thinking about what they've done, as such Turner should have been sentenced to two years minimum.
 
We're getting a fantastic lesson in why judicial elections are extremely stupid.

Understanding that there is unfairness between how pasty rich and persons of color are treated is necessary. Trying to sack a justice for hitting the edge we should be dragging persons of color towards instead of expanding the crap treatment is just. .. pitchforky in the way our justice system is supposed to avoid, but selectively and capriciously ignores.

Equal treatment under law is a fine concept by itself. The problem seems to be the nature of regular enforcement when comparing intention of system to what system does.

Is three months and out really the most likely practice to limit future damage on average? What should we be doing in this scenario?

Given per person crime rate compared to elsewhere it's not hard to conclude improvement is possible and desirable.
 
Understanding that there is unfairness between how pasty rich and persons of color are treated is necessary. Trying to sack a justice for hitting the edge we should be dragging persons of color towards instead of expanding the crap treatment is just. .. pitchforky in the way our justice system is supposed to avoid, but selectively and capriciously ignores.

"it's unfair, let's make it more equally unfair"
 
I don't like the whole story. The demand by the girl for a harsher punishment doesn't sit well with me, especially in light of what she stated about her own expectations on a statement where she claimed that the day after she thought the case would not even get to trial:

At the time, she thought, "There's no way this is going to trial; there were witnesses, there was dirt in my body, he ran but was caught. He's going to settle, formally apologize, and we will both move on.

What kind of settlement? How does US justice works on those cases? Why shouldn't a criminal case be decided through a trial anyway? My feeling is that someone who quickly finds that they "will both move on" was not so damaged that people should be clamoring in some kind of moral panic for the harshest possible public vengeance to be executed on the aggressor. Rape is bad, and obviously public policy and the law specifically should aim to prevent it. But let's not pretend here that this is not one of those instances of young fools screwing up their lives in an institutional setting (fraternity parties :rolleyes: ) that too often leads to drunkenness and sex: it was. So I'm not shocked at a relatively light sentence. What shocks me are the heavy sentences routinely handed down for this kind of thing. Draconian punishments do not produce better outcomes, they may even makes things worse.
 
I don't like the whole story. The demand by the girl for a harsher punishment doesn't sit well with me, especially in light of what she stated about her own expectations on a statement where she claimed that the day after she thought the case would not even get to trial:



What kind of settlement? How does US justice works on those cases? Why shouldn't a criminal case be decided through a trial anyway? My feeling is that someone who quickly finds that they "will both move on" was not so damaged that people should be clamoring in some kind of moral panic for the harshest possible public vengeance to be executed on the aggressor. Rape is bad, and obviously public policy and the law specifically should aim to prevent it. But let's not pretend here that this is not one of those instances of young fools screwing up their lives in an institutional setting (fraternity parties :rolleyes: ) that too often leads to drunkenness and sex: it was. So I'm not shocked at a relatively light sentence. What shocks me are the heavy sentences routinely handed down for this kind of thing. Draconian punishments do not produce better outcomes, they may even makes things worse.
Less than 1% of rape cases result in prison time so a settlement is generally the most that can be hoped for, indeed there have been cases ad absurd as where a 40 year old man raped a 14 tear old result in the 14 year old committing suicide and the perp gets a mere 30 days in county jail or where a man is convicted of raping his daughter and only gets probation (not even a single day in jail) and those are of the few cases that actually resulted in a conviction.

Convictions with even short prison sentences being so few and far between makes rapists feel untouchable especially those with money because the truth is, they basically are. In an extremely rare case like this where it was mostly clear that he was going to be convicted they should have given a much harsher sentence, not only because this brat is so entitled, but because he was unequivocally guilty of a sex crime and to send a message that this stuff won't be tolerated and people will be prosecuted for this crime.

Draconian punishments can definitely cause more problems, but excessively light punishments for the few and far between cases with a conviction also has serious ramifications.
 
"it's unfair, let's make it more equally unfair"

Yes, the sentence sucks. You know it sucks. I know it sucks. Everyone knows it sucks. The sentence seems legal. Let's hope it's appealed if it's not. Let's change the law if this is how it works. Or, since it's a state law, ya 'll go change it. I see no point in a sentence for this sort of thing shorter than half a decade time served. But my primary interest there isn't rehabbing rich boy. My primary interest is the lb of flesh. He deserves to be punished more for our sake, not his. Judicial elections remain stupid.
 
Look, I'm wouldn't particularly consider myself to be a 'feminist' and I'm not one of those that thinks rape is the very worst thing that can happen to a person (obviously some people do, this thread alone proves it).

Nonetheless, a 3 month or 6 month sentence is nothing short of absurd. As someone (I forget who) in this thread stated previously, it should be a 2 year minimum.

The judges decision to give him such a lenient sentence because (I'm paraphrasing here) "he was a good old boy and it's a shame to see his life get ruined" is absurd. What about the life of the girl he raped? How come her life doesn't count?
 
If that's the response you're coming back at me with, we're not even talking about the same thing. Which isn't unusual following an Aelf post, he's pretty adroit at taking an unrelated point and making it about something totally different.

Outrage over leniency is why we have sentencing minimums. Just remember what they come with, aight?
 
Yeah, sorry. Anyway, I'd like to share a personal story I have that this case reminds me of. It's not as dramatic or serious as this case, but the moral is similar.

When I was in high school I was a French horn player. I was a mediocre player and one of the players was very gifted. He always got top ranks, and would win awards in contests with his French horn playing abilities.

As a result of this, the music conductor always let him get away with essentially whatever he wanted. They did all kinds of crazy things. To give one example, him and his baseball friends (he was also a baseball player.) would go into the boys bathroom of the music department.

This is bad enough because people who aren't in band or choir aren't supposed to be in the music department at all. But to make things worse, they chewed tobacco while they were in there. Many of them were under 18, but you aren't supposed to be doing that on school property regardless.

The band director was clearly going to let him and his buddies get away with it as much as they wanted. After all, good old boy is a great French horn player making the school look good with those awards he keeps winning, so it's best not to piss him off. Yep, we've got to let him walk all over us! :rolleyes:

No longer satisfied with just chewing tobacco in the boys restroom of the music department, they have to push the envelope further. He must have wondered just how untouchable he really was. So the next thing he did was sell weed to other minors, and smoke it with them in the boys bathroom. Honestly he could have probably gotten away with this to. The critical mistake he made? He smoked it in the general building of the high school, where all the regular teachers are, rather than in the music department where he's Mr. untouchable. They caught him almost immediately, and he ended up getting suspended.

Now selling/smoking weed (even with minors) is not even remotely like rape. But the two stories remind me of each other.
 
Nothing rocks Peter and the Wolf like the wolf. Hard to march with, though.

Yes, untouchable in-groups are one very good reason for minimums. Correcting societal blindness towards selective types of victimization are another good one. Especially applicable here. May they do good work. But they are going to, inevitably, cut minorities harder than they are going to the good ol'boys. They've got more tools up their sleeve to begin with to avoid the bleed.

Either way, the outrage is good. It seems it's going to get this specific act actually defined correctly under criminal statute. Go team white. Yayyyyy.
 
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