staznesX: All Under Heaven

[Neverwonagame3]

Where, in the phrase "normalization of relations" or its equivalent "reopening of relations" does "alliance" appear? To refuse to speak with every Catholic nation on Earth closes an awful lot of doors. You might not want alliance, but a regular dialogue between nations is pragmatic and sensible.

Things that happened a century ago don't qualify as "typical of our age". And the partition of Spanish territories in Italy had nothing to do with what the Spanish wanted.

Not that I support letting commoners rule the state, but the partition of the Spanish had nothing to do with what any people wanted.

As I said, it is necessary to maintain a seperation between the likes of us and those who merely seek power. There is much continuity between centuries, as is demonstrated by the time we call medieval.

If the European states do not, on the whole, seek power, why did the Russians invade Sweden, breaking a signed agreement of non-agression? Why did we Swedes begin our own wars of agression? Why did the French not aid the Emperor against the hated Ottoman Turks? Why did the Leauge of Ausburg exist at all, if not to contain French power?

I will not claim that there are not exceptions, but if we do not come out from among them, we will be corrupted in our turn.

 

[Dachs]

As I said, it is necessary to maintain a seperation between the likes of us and those who merely seek power. There is much continuity between centuries, as is demonstrated by the time we call medieval.

So only and all Catholic countries 'seek power', despite the fact that the examples you cited, save one (which is spurious at best, since the French nobles Suvri, Crequi, Chatellest, Longueval, Savoy, and Conti all participated in the Great Turkish War) were done by countries that are not Catholic. We fail to see a good reason as to why Catholic countries ought be barred from normal diplomatic relations - such as the ones you're conducting right now by answering Spanish and French questions - on the basis of the will to power.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

So only and all Catholic countries 'seek power', despite the fact that the examples you cited, save one (which is spurious at best, since the French nobles Suvri, Crequi, Chatellest, Longueval, Savoy, and Conti all participated in the Great Turkish War) were done by countries that are not Catholic. We fail to see a good reason as to why Catholic countries ought be barred from normal diplomatic relations - such as the ones you're conducting right now by answering Spanish and French questions - on the basis of the will to power.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

—Second Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians (vi, 14-17)

Catholicism is a heresy- it is impious to have any sort of concord with heretics. The search for power has infected both Catholic and so-called Protestant Kings, but we deal with the Protestant Kings because at least they aren't heretics, and because there is more hope that they can be redeemed.

 

[Dachs]

Catholicism is a heresy- it is impious to have any sort of concord with heretics. The search for power has infected both Catholic and so-called Protestant Kings, but we deal with the Protestant Kings because at least they aren't heretics, and because there is more hope that they can be redeemed.

So what was the point of that "power" janx? Fine, whatever, have it your own way. Just trying to help. France and Sweden's alliance was broken by Swedish perfidy long ago anyway.

 

[alex994]

OOC: OOC speaking, what is Sweden's position on non-Christian nations? Do non-Christian nations pretty much not exist?

 

[BananaLee]

You mean non-Christians are able to create *nations*?

 

[Neverwonagame3]

So what was the point of that "power" janx? Fine, whatever, have it your own way. Just trying to help. France and Sweden's alliance was broken by Swedish perfidy long ago anyway.

It was that, as a general rule, every state in Europe seeks power. A hypothetical Catholic state who acted towards Protestants as we did towards Catholics we would respect, as a worthy enemy. But since the Catholics do not tolerate Protestants (in general) and nor vica versa, there can be no peace without hypocrisy.

To simply allow heretics to walk about our lands in peace would also be hypocrisy- betraying the principles of the Church which trace back to Saint Augustine. Therefore, there can be no peace without hypocrisy, or absolute victory for one side or the other.

OOC:
My IC posistion as Sweden is that it doesn't matter what the boundaries of earthly kingdoms are (he wouldn't concieve of 'nations' the way we do), as long as they acknowledge God as their ultimate authority and are Protestant, preferably Lutheran.

There is actually some hypocrisy in their King (if not as much as others) in that he will tolerate other Protestant states.

 

[Thlayli]

From: His Majesty, Maximilian II, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire and Duke of Bavaria
To: Sweden

Due to the recent insanity of the Swedish king, we implore the Rikstag to restore religious tolerance and declare an end to foolish foreign adventurism. If sanity is not restored, we will be forced to remove Swedish privileges as a member of the HRE, and furthermore, give imperial sanction to those states seeking to end Sweden's occupation of German territory.

We will entertain emissaries from the Rikstag alone.

 

[Azale]

From: His Majesty, Maximilian II, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire and Duke of Bavaria
To: Sweden

Due to the recent insanity of the Swedish king, we implore the Rikstag to restore religious tolerance and declare an end to foolish foreign adventurism. If sanity is not restored, we will be forced to remove Swedish privileges as a member of the HRE, and furthermore, give imperial sanction to those states seeking to end Sweden's occupation of German territory.

We will entertain emissaries from the Rikstag alone.

From: A Representative of the Riksdag of Sweden
To: Maximilian II, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire

Your majesty, it is not a simple task you ask of us. Either we refuse and see you go forth with the seizure of properly earned Swedish territory or we accept and see the immediate schism of our country. We have already come to agreement with the King and his sons, wherein he promises an end to the Spanish incident.

We can not take up arms at this time, not at your provocation, Emperor.


@everyone, stats and front page are done. As usual I probably overlooked a dozen things, so don't be shy to point it out. Preferably in PM so it doesn't clutter the thread

 

[Thlayli]

If at least the legitimate Swedish government stands opposed to the outrageous policies of the monarchy, we stand satisfied, assuming His Highness the Swede makes no further provocation.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

OOC: At this period, religious intolerance was the norm. In fact, it would have existed in Sweden PRIOR to Erik XV's policies. Austria had religious intolerance, France had religious intolerance, England has religious intolerance- and those are just the ones I can show with sources!

 

[Disenfrancised]

Dear Swedish King

We find your religious insanity displeasing and incompatible with the philosophy of swadharma we espouse, and your visage abhorrent to boot! Thus we will suspend diplomatic relations till further notice, see how you like that!

Love and kisses,
The Maratha Court.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Dear Swedish King

We find your religious insanity displeasing and incompatible with the philosophy of swadharma we espouse, and your visage abhorrent to boot! Thus we will suspend diplomatic relations till further notice, see how you like that!

Love and kisses,
The Maratha Court.

To the Marathans

We have already cancelled diplomatic relations with you anyway.

From Sweden

 

[Disenfrancised]

To the Marathans

We have already cancelled diplomatic relations with you anyway.

From Sweden

Then how did you get our message?!?

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Because you sent a messanger with it.

OOC: At this time, I don't think any European country would even have an embassy with the Marathas, especially not one with no colonies.

 

[Azale]

Because you sent a messanger with it.

OOC: At this time, I don't think any European country would even have an embassy with the Marathas, especially not one with no colonies.

Hmm, the French, British, Dutch, VOC, and the Brazilians all have embassy's in the Marathas Samrajya.

 

[alex994]

To: Sweden
From: Nan Ming Empire of China

The Nan Ming Empire of China would like to politely inform the so-called King of Sweden, through Chinese embassies in Holland-Hanover and France that Swedish merchants are barred from all the ports under the Chinese banner. The King of Sweden's refusal to recognize the superiority of the Chinese Empire to Sweden, along with his refusal to recognize Our Splendid Empire as even a nation, makes him beneath the notice of even the poorest beggar of Japan.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

To: Sweden
From: Nan Ming Empire of China

The Nan Ming Empire of China would like to politely inform the so-called King of Sweden, through Chinese embassies in Holland-Hanover and France that Swedish merchants are barred from all the ports under the Chinese banner. The King of Sweden's refusal to recognize the superiority of the Chinese Empire to Sweden, along with his refusal to recognize Our Splendid Empire as even a nation, makes him beneath the notice of even the poorest beggar of Japan.

OOC: The idea of nation did not even exist back then! No European nation recognised the superiority of China!

 

[alex994]

OOC: Nonsense, the idea of a nation may not have existed in Europe back then, but definitely in China. Do not pester me with your European notions.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

OOC: Nonsense, the idea of a nation may not have existed in Europe back then, but definitely in China considering all those scholars throwing themselves into a river, committing suicide and etc when their beloved "nation" fell. Do not pester me with your European notions.

OOC: The ideas behind nationalism did not exist in China or Europe- if I remember right, China was basically seen as the world to the typical Chinese.

IC:
We recognise that your kingdom exists, but refuse to have diplomatic relations with non-Protestants.