stDarNES1: Stars!

[Erik Mesoy]

EDIT: Stop mixing OOC and IC, Iggy. OOC, I offered you a chance to affect my IC reason for my declaration of war. Your response was essentially to say "don't declare war!", so here's your nice, formal declaration of war on a silver platter, and I'm going to write half a dozen stories blaming you for everything. You (OOC) brought it on yourself.

 

[Kal'thzar]

Don't do this Erik.

 

[TerrisH]

the Secret behind the Trinity Goverment:
It Owns Every bit of mechanical Transport, from cars to Spaceships. No Exeption. At it's core, it had Four Laws.
One, Don't Develop your own moterrized transportation, or we will kill you.
Two, you may rule however you want, but you can not restrict the peoples right to move if they want.
Three, if you have something to move or ship long disctances, we are more then happy to move it, for a small fee.
Four, you can send three represinitives to represent you tot he emperors, and only three, no more, no less. but the Emperors have Final Say, as long as they themselves don't break these rules.

Sure, there are a lot more Laws and rules in there, and the wording is a lot more flowery, but that is pretty much it.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Besides, he started it. Really. So I'm justified in being arrogant at him.

Dude, I didn't start anything. You're just trying to provoke me so that I retaliate and you have an excuse to attack me.

So my response will be simply this:

The people of Haven are highly offended by the Astral Sojourners' constant verbal attacks against our people and government. We see no logical precedent for your aggression. Should you attack us, it will be obvious that the precedent is imperialistic tendencies.

The people of Haven do not wish for a war. We wish for things to remain as they have been for many years, peaceful. But should you attack us, we will not surrender our beloved way of life and government to your ways. The people of Haven will fight in space, air and earth in defense. Please do not let your aggression bring our two nations into a state of war. It will be most regrettable, more for the Astral Sojourners than you may expect.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Or, from my point of view: Your government couldn't possibly work the way you said it worked, so your empire was lying to mine at the very highest level and sidestepping all the little inconsistencies that were pointed out by my ambassador. Since the Sojournership has a very strong "free information" culture, your lies and secrecy were intolerable.

As there is no centralized government, secrecy in the government is impossible. People are, naturally, capable of lying, but in the end these lies could come as easily from the lips of your people. And as all people vote on every relevant issue in Haven, the effects of lies are watered down to an infinitesimally small level.

But please, specify what 'lies' you speak of before we argue our case further. Do you refer to the perceived 'lies' in the workings of our government? If so, please specify your qualms with it, and we shall explain.

OOC@Darwin: Does this fancy diplo count as a story? I think I'll need a story bonus this turn.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Uh, post #461 was OOC. It was not a message from the ambassador.

Iggy, I accuse your government of not being reasonable, as specified by Darwin in the beginning of the thread. It can't work.

And I should never have started talking about this. Back in post #442, I should have just said "Here's our formal declaration of war" and let that be that. TerrisH did that to the Kalekkans, and nobody's so much as raised a finger against him. But noooo, I had to be willing to cooperate on a meta-level, and offered several possible reasons for war.

*rewinds the OOC posts*
EDIT: The posts have been partially rewound.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Well, we're still in denial then. If you offer us no choice but war, war it must, tragically, be.

Oh, and Darwin said that the government was odd, but not unreasonable. Has there ever been any mention in the updates of my government type causing majour problems?

 

[soul_warrior]

in the last few days the republic has had strange rumours from faraway systems.

it would appear that humanity has survived in a MUCH larger part of space, but also that tribal rivalries are once again, after almost destoying us, rising to the front.

rumours of war amongst the last remenants of humanity are troubling the sleep of his excellency,
HEED THE VOICE OF HIS HIGHNESS:

War is not the answer, and we beseech you to hold off all aggressive actions till our diplomats can intervene and broker a satisfying peace between the factions.
Our diplomats are already enroute in all directions, and should arrive at a spaceport near you during the next few years.
We would like to reassure every human that we come with peace and open hearts, and would extend the same courtesies to all.
Our hope is for a united humanity to thwart and destroy the Scourge, Jah curse it to an eternity in Babylon!!!

once again, we must beg of you to hold off ANY warlike activity till our galctic famous SoundSystem can arrive at your systems and bring peace back to the front.

With a good day and Jah Bless, we bid you all farewell and peace among all.

 

[soul_warrior]

ooh, and just a curious acid question.

what does OOC stand for?
anyone have a link to a NES lingo-etiquette page?

many thanks

 

[Erik Mesoy]

in the last few days the republic has had strange rumours from faraway systems.

it would appear that humanity has survived in a MUCH larger part of space, but also that tribal rivalries are once again, after almost destoying us, rising to the front.

rumours of war amongst the last remenants of humanity are troubling the sleep of his excellency,
HEED THE VOICE OF HIS HIGHNESS:

His Highness does not have contact with all empires. I tried to say "I can't hear you" last time, but apparently you didn't get it. You have contact with Trinetev and Olgev only. It's on the first page.

"OOC" stands for "Out Of Character", meaning that we as players are discussing the NES, as opposed to our ambassadors sending each other messages.

Oh, and Darwin said that the government was odd, but not unreasonable. Has there ever been any mention in the updates of my government type causing majour problems?

No. Has there been any mention in the updates of <insert unrelated rant here>? No. I'm arguing that your government can't work in the long run. I asked some critical questions that you refused to answer, which evidences that you can't think of any way your government could work.

Is there mandatory voting? How long do votes last? Who can call a vote?

Mandatory voting = highly undemocratic. Free voting = interested small parties overrule disinterested majorities.
Long votes = delays and inefficiency. Short votes = not everyone will get to vote due to sleep cycles and planetary communication times.
You've already stated you have no centralized government, so I suppose anyone can call a vote, so the voting system can easily be tied up by a few people repeatedly raising pointless issues.

 

[soul_warrior]

OOC - to all

His Highness does not have contact with all empires. I tried to say "I can't hear you" last time, but apparently you didn't get it. You have contact with Trinetev and Olgev only. It's on the first page.

well, i do realise that...
but...
i said - "rumours" - implying i DO NOT have any specific info relating to it, hence NO DIRECT reference to either party.
my faction has met 2 factions, and dispersed a pirate "haven" hence our suspiction that humanity has gone back to its wild warlike nature.
it IS, however, IN CHARACTER for my faction to persue peace.
what i have sent is a kind of hyperlight message, aswell as quite a few ships that are EN-ROUTE to the various corners of the quadrant.
when i want to speak directly to someone, i will do that. when i adress my "proclamations" to "all" or no specific target it is to be taken as generic news from within my empire.

major events get published and brought to the publics' notice whenever possible.

hope this clarifies this attitude of my empire and emperor.

"OOC" stands for "Out Of Character", meaning that we as players are discussing the NES, as opposed to our ambassadors sending each other messages.

thanx.
point taken.

...which evidences that you can't think of any way your government could work.

i have to disagree with you here.
it just shows that it was not deemed nessesary to explain everything.
i personally dont think theocracies and dictatorships can be lasting means of goverment, but RL keeps proving me wrong.
that just means i dont know everything about everything.

Mandatory voting = highly undemocratic. Free voting = interested small parties overrule disinterested majorities.
Long votes = delays and inefficiency. Short votes = not everyone will get to vote due to sleep cycles and planetary communication times.

You've already stated you have no centralized government, so I suppose anyone can call a vote, so the voting system can easily be tied up by a few people repeatedly raising pointless issues.

with this i agree.
but its not my faction, nor my goverment, and even a totally chaotic goverment can work, sort of.
just have to figure out the why? how? what with?

and a final note - this is a game, right?
as in not a real thing?
why is it possible to have a faction of interconnected cyborg men and not a faction full of reasonable, honest people, that are truly just in favour of planetary advancement?
oops, sorry, i forgot the wild sci-fi section is on the 2nd floor

** just a footnote, this is all not meant to offend, just clarify my views, and a mild attempt to ease tensions between players.
easing them between FACTIONS is within character, but not really of great import here,
let me assure you that if needed my faction will wage war as well as any of the other factions.

good day.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

STORY POST

The opening chord that would spark off the war had been struck four years ago, which made it fitting that the first shot would be fired four years after the formal declaration.
In the Phellant system, where the Dysonians had been working tirelessly at their great project, a ship from Haven and an Astral ship were in the system at approximately the same time. The former had, quite unknowingly, pushed at an asteroid in the outer reaches of the system. The asteroid, disjointed from its orbit, had begun spiralling inwards on a direct course for the Dyson Sphere. By the time it arrived, it would have such a velocity that it would utterly destroy whatever mass it came into contact with.
The Sojourners' over-active scanners had picked this up. "Turn around and put that asteroid back", they said.
No response. The other ship began to return towards the stargate to Haven.
"Ex-cuse us. You have to put that asteroid back."
Whether the Havenians had been offended, amused, or both, nobody knew. They merely left. So the Astral ship had spent an hour chasing the asteroid down while sending an emergency message to the Dysonians.
In the end, it was decided not to nag at the Havenians. Next time they were so careless, there would probably be consequences, and they would have to answer for them.

 

[Darwin420]

Wow...

Not sure how to react to all this. I can't tell if tensions are just high in-game, or if people are starting to drag this into OOC... If it's the former, carry on. I will definitely run with this on the update. If it's the latter .. chill, it's just a game. No need to get at each other's throats.

From a Mod perspective, regarding Haven's government, it has been OK'd for purposes of the game. This IS the future, after all. On a side note, Pure Democracy is quite possibly as non-attainable as Pure Communism. Both are seemingly great ideals, but have not yet been attainable in anything other than very small populations.

But, like I said. This is a game, with JUMPGATES, ALIENS, and a BIO-MECHANICAL VIRUS... what's a little pure democracy added to the suspension of disbelief??

And if the Sojourners can't possibly fathom or appreciate what HAven has accomplished, then, well, it IS their right to declare war...

All right... off my soapbox.

Gonna be a great update on Friday!

 

[Disenfrancised]

the Secret behind the Trinity Goverment:
It Owns Every bit of mechanical Transport, from cars to Spaceships. No Exeption. At it's core, it had Four Laws.
One, Don't Develop your own moterrized transportation, or we will kill you.
Two, you may rule however you want, but you can not restrict the peoples right to move if they want.
Three, if you have something to move or ship long disctances, we are more then happy to move it, for a small fee.
Four, you can send three represinitives to represent you tot he emperors, and only three, no more, no less. but the Emperors have Final Say, as long as they themselves don't break these rules.

Sure, there are a lot more Laws and rules in there, and the wording is a lot more flowery, but that is pretty much it.

Hooray for Hydraulic Empires!

And Pure democracy is attainable, as long as everyone thinks exactly the same

 

[Erik Mesoy]

But, like I said. This is a game, with (1)JUMPGATES, (2)ALIENS, and a (3)BIO-MECHANICAL VIRUS... what's a little pure democracy added to the suspension of disbelief??

We had this in the preview thread once already.

1. Blackbox technology stands up to suspension of disbelief, and some form of FTL travel is a given for a space NES. (And tech, like programs, may be black magic because no one understands it.)
2. Given that we exist, aliens can certainly exist. Work out for yourself how many there are.
3. There is no true difference between biology and mechanics; only a mindset. The same goes for "organic" chemistry, which only has that name from tradition. Even today, viruses are considered somewhat mechanical, since they aren't alive.

A little pure democracy, however, cannot exist in a blackbox. It has to hold votes occasionally, and those votes have to be called by someone, and last a period of time.

EDIT: Just so I'm clear, I'm not trying to say that Haven should fall apart and experience horrible events. I'm pointing out why there would have to be lots of delays, or a de facto central-undemocratic government, or lies about how everyone votes on every issue, or great frustration every time the Sojourners' private enterprises try to strike a deal because there's no central authority or anywhere to report complaints to, or several of the above. So that beautiful ideal is just filled to the brim with casa belli.

well, i do realise that...
but...
i said - "rumours" - implying i DO NOT have any specific info relating to it, hence NO DIRECT reference to either party.
my faction has met 2 factions, and dispersed a pirate "haven" hence our suspiction that humanity has gone back to its wild warlike nature.

Rumors of war are fine, but we're still at the "diplomatic negotiations breaking down" stage.
I suppose you have professional rumormongers working for you?

 

[Disenfrancised]

There is no true difference between biology and mechanics; only a mindset. The same goes for "organic" chemistry, which only has that name from tradition.

Also being sigged - , continue your quotableness and I may trade in my trusty Linnaeus quote for something more Mesoyian...Mesoian......Mesoyesque.......whatever.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

The word you're looking for is "hackish".

---Edit, here are some nice quotes, in different styles. Second and fourth one are my own.

New lands aren't colonized by statistically significant control groups. They're colonized by
those mad enough, desperate enough or rich enough to go there in the first place.​

Mechanistic:

The brain is an organ like any other, and to speak of consciousness in this context is a
luxury we cannot afford if we are to understand it fully.​

More hopeful:

Mind is the function of the brain and how it operates. Soon we will be able to call ourselves
mind surgeons as well as brain surgeons.​

And last:

To be what we are is to tread the line between knowledge and outright arrogance.
Step left, and you will fall behind. Step right, and you will be consumed by pride.
Only when you can shut the world out will you understand what standard you are judged by.​

Feel free to modify them.

 

[soul_warrior]

OOC

lots of pro rumour mongers here.
how'd you think all the emperors come to power?

we ARE a religious republic, governed by the head of church.

the BEST rumour monger i KNOW off is the persona known as GOD,
and as an omniscient, omni potent being, that CHOOSES to grant visions to the ruler of my faction (drug induced or not ) i think we have a great advantage here.

i might even make a project out of this....
just have to figure out how to incorperate HER into this.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Mandatory voting = highly undemocratic. Free voting = interested small parties overrule disinterested majorities.
Long votes = delays and inefficiency. Short votes = not everyone will get to vote due to sleep cycles and planetary communication times.
You've already stated you have no centralized government, so I suppose anyone can call a vote, so the voting system can easily be tied up by a few people repeatedly raising pointless issues.

Please allow us to explain more fully to the Astral Sojourners how our government functions.

On the Government of the Democratic Union of Haven, Byblos, Fetarra and Naqu

OOC: Yes, that is the complete and official name of my nation. But you can still just call it 'Haven'. BTW, my people are Havenites, not Havenians or Haveners.

*****

An issue is brought to the attention of the population of Haven by an information net connected to microcomputers in the brains of every Havenite. Most issues are important only for a specific group, such as colonists on Fetarra, those working in the Robotics industry, or residents of a particular building. Other times, the entire population is required to vote. An example of when this should happen is when another nation approaches us and offers a trade of technical knowledge. The information will be transmitted to every Havenite, plus 3 choices to vote on the question 'Should we trade technology to nation: Yes, No, Abstain.

If 'Yes' has the most support, then a second vote will be made.

'For what price?'

The mean average amount chosen by the population of Haven is the proposal sent back to the trading nation.

Generally, 24 hours are given to vote when the entire nation is involved. If a vote is not received, then it is assumed that the voter abstains. The times that votes are held often overlap.

You've already stated you have no centralized government, so I suppose anyone can call a vote, so the voting system can easily be tied up by a few people repeatedly raising pointless issues.

We would like to respond specifically to this. If a person raises a pointless issue, it will often be filtered off by one of the numerous computer programs that govern the voting system. Also, issues cannot be revoted for one year after they are decided. If it gets past these filters, the issue will only be voted on by those who are in the specific group who is directly affected by it, or would be interested in responding.

If someone raises the question "Should we illegalize yogourt?" then this will be blocked and not presented to voters unless over 2% of the population have brought up this issue.

If someone raises the question 'Should we have Building OX13AlphaAlpha renovated, the vote will only be presented to those who are affected by Building OX13AlphaAlpha.

If someone tries to raise the vote, 'Should we start randomly slaughtering Crownbeetles?' this vote will not be filtered off as it is not a complete waste, but it is likely that the vote will be overwhelmingly NO!

The opening chord that would spark off the war had been struck four years ago, which made it fitting that the first shot would be fired four years after the formal declaration.
In the Phellant system, where the Dysonians had been working tirelessly at their great project, a ship from Haven and an Astral ship were in the system at approximately the same time. The former had, quite unknowingly, pushed at an asteroid in the outer reaches of the system. The asteroid, disjointed from its orbit, had begun spiralling inwards on a direct course for the Dyson Sphere. By the time it arrived, it would have such a velocity that it would utterly destroy whatever mass it came into contact with.
The Sojourners' over-active scanners had picked this up. "Turn around and put that asteroid back", they said.
No response. The other ship began to return towards the stargate to Haven.
"Ex-cuse us. You have to put that asteroid back."
Whether the Havenians had been offended, amused, or both, nobody knew. They merely left. So the Astral ship had spent an hour chasing the asteroid down while sending an emergency message to the Dysonians.
In the end, it was decided not to nag at the Havenians. Next time they were so careless, there would probably be consequences, and they would have to answer for them.

First of all, we doubt the truth of this as the Dysonians have never contacted us about this incident. Secondly, even if this HAD happened, it would be the actions of individuals, not the whole of Haven. The Military is not as bound to the will of the people as the Government, for the obvious reasons: Democracy, regrettably, doesn't work in war. Also, not every citizen who cares about the outcome of military actions is a tactical mastermind.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

(OOC)

First of all, we doubt the truth of this as the Dysonians have never contacted us about this incident. Secondly, even if this HAD happened, it would be the actions of individuals, not the whole of Haven. The Military is not as bound to the will of the people as the Government, for the obvious reasons: Democracy, regrettably, doesn't work in war. Also, not every citizen who cares about the outcome of military actions is a tactical mastermind.

Translation: "You're lying".
Response: "Choke on your own medicine."

An issue is brought to the attention of the population of Haven by an information net connected to microcomputers in the brains of every Havenite.

Godmoding by technology.

The mean average amount chosen by the population of Haven is the proposal sent back to the trading nation.

One guy says an amount equal to ten times the population of your empire, and the mean becomes ten plus the average of what everybody else says.

We can sit here and snipe at each other all day, and the next hole in your system is the highly undemocratic "filtering" of votes.