Steve Jobs Dies

I was making a replying to Formaldehyde. It seems that our entire style of live and standard of living hinges on the exploitation of the third world.

Exploitation?

has anyone cared to ask the chinese working for Apple (or other companies) if they like having those jobs? That having such a job beats the alternative?

Probably not. The most likely fact that many of those people would be far worse in life without even those low wage jobs seems to go unnoticed. Odds are the people working them are quite thankfull for them.
 
Just as I'm sure the Iranians and Chileans liked being exploited for their oil reserves, as the Central and South Americans like being exploited on banana plantations, and Cubans for their sugar cane. They were all quite thankful that American imperialism made Americans filthy rich while the American military protected their interests.
 
Just as I'm sure the Iranians and Chileans liked being exploited for their oil reserves, as the Central and South Americans like being exploited on banana plantations, and Cubans for their sugar cane. They were all quite thankful that American imperialism made Americans filthy rich while the American military protected their interests.

And if you took those jobs away from those individuals do you think they would thank you or curse you for making their lives even harder?
 
And if you took those jobs away from those individuals do you think they would thank you or curse you for making their lives even harder?

Would a slave thank you or curse you for setting him free after providing him with food and shelter all of his enslaved life?
 
Would a slave thank you or curse you for setting him free after providing him with food and shelter all of his enslaved life?

I think it depends on how you treated the slave and what their expectations of survival were once set free.

Even the bible states how many of the hebrews complained and desired to return to the terrible slavery of the Pharoahs deeming such servitude to be better than starving in the desert to die.

The old saying 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' does have some applicability there.
 
I think it depends on how you treated the slave and what their expectations of survival were once set free.

Even the bible states how many of the hebrews complained and desired to return to the terrible slavery of the Pharoahs deeming such servitude to be better than starving in the desert to die.

The old saying 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' does have some applicability there.

This then becomes an issue over the ownership of production. Are those Chinese workers owned nothing but their wages? Is that fair? And so on...
 
This then becomes an issue over the ownership of production. Are those Chinese workers owned nothing but their wages? Is that fair? And so on...

Whats considered fair here in the USA and whats considered fair in China may be two entirely different things.

But perhaps we should consider that those wages they are owed, even as small as they are, also probably give them a standard of living quite in excess of many of their neighbors that dont have such jobs.

Perhaps you should ask the workers themselves if they feel they are being treated fairly or not?

This really reminds me of all that stink over Walmart employees some years ago. People would complain about how Walmart employees were treated unfairly, no medical coverage, blah, blah, blah. But in asking some of my high school friends who now worked for Walmart about it; they were actually upset not at Walmart, but at the media. They really liked their jobs and liked working for Walmart and actually appreciated having the job as opposed to not having one.

My point being sometimes the perception of an issue is rather far afield from the actual reality of it.
 
My point being sometimes the perception of an issue is rather far afield from the actual reality of it.

And my point is that the perception from an exploited person's viewpoint is not always a valid observation. Of course Chinese people will be happy to have those jobs. Of course WalMart people are happy to have their jobs. It's the way our exploitative system is set up.

Just because they're happy to be exploited so that they can have a minimal standard of living, doesn't mean that this exploitation is correct, and that this system can't be made more equitable.


Consider a boy is randomly chosen in a class. He is randomly chosen to be the pariah. Everybody will shun him and nobody will give him anything. He is to die of starvation out in the gutter. But, people have decided to take him up under enslavement in exchange for providing him with food and shelter. He should be happy, right?

We could colour the story up by branding him of a certain race or religion. And in real life, this situation has a way of happening - if you're born in Canada or in China, will have a massive effect on your standard of living for the same manufacturing work. The "born in Canada or China" is the "random" part.

Roll the dice when you're born. Randomly fall in China doing a manufacturing job? Be happy and praise the capitalists that exploit you so that you have food on your table. Randomly fall in Canada doing a manufacturing job? Live in comfort with wide-screen TVs, iPhones, and iPads.
 
steve20jobs20tribute.jpg
 
And my point is that the perception from an exploited person's viewpoint is not always a valid observation. Of course Chinese people will be happy to have those jobs. Of course WalMart people are happy to have their jobs. It's the way our exploitative system is set up.

Just because they're happy to be exploited so that they can have a minimal standard of living, doesn't mean that this exploitation is correct, and that this system can't be made more equitable.

They are happy because having those jobs (that you would take away from them) are better than the alternative...
 
This really reminds me of all that stink over Walmart employees some years ago. People would complain about how Walmart employees were treated unfairly, no medical coverage, blah, blah, blah. But in asking some of my high school friends who now worked for Walmart about it; they were actually upset not at Walmart, but at the media. They really liked their jobs and liked working for Walmart and actually appreciated having the job as opposed to not having one.
Yep. Most people love working at Walmart for low wages and little or no benefits, especially women. Who wouldn't?

Wal-Mart: The Facts

The EEOC is suing Wal-Mart over allegations of sexual harassment of female employees in Alabama. *

Nearly three-quarters of a million women work as "sales associates" in Wal-Mart stores. On average these women earn $6.10 per hour, or $12,688 per year if they are permitted to work full-time. This wage puts many of their families below the poverty level — half even qualify for federal assistance under the food stamp program. **

Current and former employees in California are suing Wal-Mart for sex discrimination in pay, promotion, and compensation. This will be the country's largest sex discrimination suit against a private employer if it is granted class-action status.

Wal-Mart's health insurance plan excludes contraceptive coverage. A suit, which is seeking class action status, has been filed in Georgia regarding this exclusion.

Women who make pants in El Salvador earn 15 cents for each pair; Wal-Mart sells these pants for $16.95 in its U.S. stores. Also, contractors in El Salvador force workers to take pregnancy tests.

According to Brandeis University Professor Ellen I. Rosen, women in Central America who make clothes for Wal-Mart live in shacks lacking running water or plumbing while women in China live nine to twelve to a room in government-provided dormitories. Some of Wal-Mart's workers in the U.S. spend their nights in trucks of motel rooms without cooking facilities.

The Maine Department of Labor ordered Wal-Mart to pay the largest fine in state history for violating child labor laws. The Department of Labor discovered 1,436 child labor law infractions at twenty Wal-Mart chains.


Lawsuits pertaining to Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) violations have been filed in Missouri, Arizona, California, and Arkansas.

Employees from Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Washington, Illinois, Iowa, and West Virginia have sued Wal-Mart for underpaying its hourly workers. Employees from Missouri and Kansas have filed class-action suits alleging "acts of wage abuse." These acts include neglecting to pay workers overtime, preventing rest and lunch breaks, and forcing them to "work off the clock."

A former employee in New Jersey reported being harassed and fired after telling his boss that he was undergoing a sex change. He won the case, and Wal-Mart was ordered to pay him $2 million.

The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) has filed suit against the New Castle, Pennsylvania Wal-Mart for unfair labor practices. It alleges that Wal-Mart illegally discouraged workers of the Tire and Lube Express department from joining a union.

The NLRB also filed a suit against the Jacksonville, Texas Wal-Mart for unfair labor practices. It alleges that Wal-Mart threatened meat cutters, interrogated them regarding their union sympathies, and fired those who are pro-union. The United Food and Commercial Workers Union has filed a complaint with the NLRB alleging that two workers were fired because of their union organizing activities.

Following a vote in favor of union representation by the butchers in Jacksonville, Texas, Wal-Mart announced that meat cutting would end at 180 stores.

In 2000, Wal-Mart's assets totaled more than the GDP of 155 of the 192 countries in the world, with annual sales of more than $137.6 billion.

In the video Behind the Labels: Garment Workers in U.S. Saipan, Wal-Mart is featured as one of the retailers which contract with "sweatshops" in Saipan for the manufacturing of garments sold in their stores.
Great place to work. Who would possibly complain about one of the worst exploiters of laborers in the US today?


My point being sometimes the perception of an issue is rather far afield from the actual reality of it.
At least we agree on that.
 
They are happy because having those jobs (that you would take away from them) are better than the alternative...

So then why can't the analogy extend to the black slaves of before the civil war? They would be happy to be enslaved in exchange for food and shelter (that you would take away from them).
 
So then why can't the analogy extend to the black slaves of before the civil war? They would be happy to be enslaved in exchange for food and shelter (that you would take away from them).
At times like this, I get sick of hearing people comparing employment to African-American slavery. :rolleyes: Employees today can just walk off their jobs and not have to "slave away" at those jobs, and bam, their problem is fixed. African-American slavery? You can't just walk off the job.

I mean, sheesh. :rolleyes:
 
So then why can't the analogy extend to the black slaves of before the civil war? They would be happy to be enslaved in exchange for food and shelter (that you would take away from them).

Do I need to remind you what Jesus said in regards to the master/slave relationship?

Were all slaves treated with cruelty?

Do clarify, they were probably not happy to be enslaved - but if they were treated with a modicum of respect, recognized for their hard work, protected and not treated cruely; then what would be wrong with that life as opposed to possibly starving to death or being beaten and killed in a hostile world?

I dont think thats a question that has a right or wrong answer; but I dont fault someone for choosing stability and work over possible starvation and destitution if that is what they are faced with.
 
At times like this, I get sick of hearing people comparing employment to African-American slavery. :rolleyes: Employees today can just walk off their jobs and not have to "slave away" at those jobs, and bam, their problem is fixed. African-American slavery? You can't just walk off the job.

I mean, sheesh. :rolleyes:

To clarify, the analogy was to disprove the point:

If a person is happy to be in their position compared to a worse alternative, they are not being exploited, especially if this worse alternative could be caused from a cessation of that specific exploitation.

No, slavery is not the same as employment. But just because somebody is happy to work crappy hours for pay that can barely sustain them, doesn't mean that they're not being exploited. Just like slaves who are happy to receive food and shelter are still being exploited.

Do I need to remind you what Jesus said in regards to the master/slave relationship?

You know better than to bring up a character or document that I believe to be fictional and irrelevant. (no offense intended)

Were all slaves treated with cruelty?

Do clarify, they were probably not happy to be enslaved - but if they were treated with a modicum of respect, recognized for their hard work, protected and not treated cruely; then what would be wrong with that life as opposed to possibly starving to death or being beaten and killed in a hostile world?

And my point is that it is not necessary for a person to be treated with cruelty in order for them to be exploited. The presence of a dimmer alternative also does not disprove exploitation.
 
And if you took those jobs away from those individuals do you think they would thank you or curse you for making their lives even harder?

They are not happy they have those jobs. Nobody wants to work long hours, get little pay and be treated miserably all day long. Do you know how many parents in China leave their children with their grandparents in their home village or town so they can go to the cities to scrap enough money to clothe, feed and send their children to school? Millions. Millions of unhappy, tired, exhausted and lonely parents.

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1503&MainCatID=15&id=20111002000067

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/photo/2011-01/31/content_11948839.htm

They are only glad that they just have the minimun to survive. But if you ask them whether or not they are happy, they are not. They are just trying to make ends meet.
 
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