Steve Jobs Dies

[holy king]

the pope of consumerism...

 

[Rik Meleet]

 

[useless]

Let's take a little time to mourn those that died in the Chinese factories that produced Apple's products.

 

[Artifis]

It's strange that I feel this sense of sadness for a CEO... RIP Steve Jobs.

It's a good thing that he planned this before he died. That was his greatest contribution to the continuation of Apple.

 

[Glassfan]

I first played Civilization II Gold on a "Power Mac" - with a mighty 32 megabytes of memory! That was back in the last century...

 

[MobBoss]

Let's take a little time to mourn those that died in the Chinese factories that produced Apple's products.

How many died?

 

[Hygro]

Let's take a little time to mourn those that died in the Chinese factories that produced Apple's products.

I have a friend who thinks Apple is an evil company. He stated, however, that the factory suicide thing is nonsense because that factory has hundreds of thousands of employees, many of whom live there, and actually have a lower than normal suicide rate. Looking at a population that big, we should have expected more suicides just by sheer numbers. Instead we had fewer, and gave a narrative for why any happened at all.

I haven't researched this.

 

[Artifis]

I have a friend who thinks Apple is an evil company. He stated, however, that the factory suicide thing is nonsense because that factory has hundreds of thousands of employees, many of whom live there, and actually have a lower than normal suicide rate. Looking at a population that big, we should have expected more suicides just by sheer numbers. Instead we had fewer, and gave a narrative for why any happened at all.

I haven't researched this.

Your friend failed to define what a "normal suicide rate" really means. Did he give a figure?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Based on his campaign donations he was clearly a Democrat, although not that strong of one. Is that "left-leaning"?

I thought you think that both Republicans and Democrats are right-wing, the first only more so?

 

[Hygro]

Your friend failed to define what a "normal suicide rate" really means. Did he give a figure?

how would you know? Anyway, the Chinese average, I believe. Possibly the urban manufacturing average. But let's say Chinese average.

If you have x suicides per 100,000 in China and in that massive factory complex you have notably fewer than x suicides per 100,000 then you probably have a "Summer of the Shark" sensational story that is actually opposite the numbers.

 

[Artifis]

how would you know? Anyway, the Chinese average, I believe. Possibly the urban manufacturing average. But let's say Chinese average.

If you have x suicides per 100,000 in China and in that massive factory complex you have notably fewer than x suicides per 100,000 then you probably have a "Summer of the Shark" sensational story that is actually opposite the numbers.

I wouldn't know the numbers. That's why I asked you!

In any case the number of suicides is a really bad measure of working conditions. When you consider the fact that many of these workers are supporting families, there's a huge disincentive against committing suicide. They're far more likely to bear the pain of unfair working conditions to ensure that they get enough money to put food on the table.

 

[Hygro]

I wouldn't know the numbers. That's why I asked you!

In any case the number of suicides is a really bad measure of working conditions. When you consider the fact that many of these workers are supporting families, there's a huge disincentive against committing suicide. They're far more likely to bear the pain of unfair working conditions to ensure that they get enough money to put food on the table.

And the rest of the demographic isn't? You're assigning narratives to lead to a preordained conclusion.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I thought you think that both Republicans and Democrats are right-wing, the first only more so?

Exactly. All we know is that Jobs was a Democrat. We have no idea how liberal or conservative he really was.

But there is still a huge difference between the business ethics of a moderate conservative / centrist and a far-right one. The former is less likely to rationalize anything on the basis that "it is just business".

 

[Artifis]

And the rest of the demographic isn't? You're assigning narratives to lead to a preordained conclusion.

If by "isn't" you're referring to the need to put food on the table I don't disagree with you. But if you think of the typical worker in such an industry (factories, construction), you'll generally find that they're migrants from somewhere who have somebody to support back home. I see that as a very large reason to go and work even if I were made to do back-breaking shifts.

 

[Hygro]

Sure that's not bad reasoning for motivation but that doesn't actually inform us of whether or not Apple is an evil worker exploiting company or if the general conditions in China are awful and some workers inevitably committed suicide (because people do that) and it just so happened that an anti-Apple headline sold the best. Statistics, however, can help clear the fog.

 

[Formaldehyde]

If you really have a problem with the way workers are treated in China and elsewhere, don't buy any products manufactured in those countries. That also means that much of what you own at present will have to be sold or destroyed, including most of your clothes, PCs, cell phones, MPS players, TVs, and most other manufactured goods.

 

[Defiant47]

"The multinational corporations
Makes its profit from the starving nations
Indigenous peoples become their slaves
From their births into their graves

The multinational corporations
Makes its profit from the starving nations
Another product for you to buy
You'll keep paying until you die"

Napalm Death - Instinct of Survival

 

[MobBoss]

Whats that have to do with Steve Jobs dying?

 

[Defiant47]

I was making a replying to Formaldehyde. It seems that our entire style of live and standard of living hinges on the exploitation of the third world.

 

[Artifis]

Sure that's not bad reasoning for motivation but that doesn't actually inform us of whether or not Apple is an evil worker exploiting company or if the general conditions in China are awful and some workers inevitably committed suicide (because people do that) and it just so happened that an anti-Apple headline sold the best. Statistics, however, can help clear the fog.

You're right. It doesn't inform us of whether Apple is a good employer. My point is this:

If we can find statistics to prove that suicides in Apple factories are higher than the norm in China, then we have evidence that possibly proves the point. If, however, we have statistics that show that suicides in Apple factories are at, or lower than, the Chinese average, it neither strengthens nor weaken the statement: "Apple is an employer that mistreats its workers" due to the motivations of a typical migrant worker.

Furthermore, the assertion that these factories are "Apple's factories" is simplistic. They are Foxconn's factories, a company which Apple hired to manufacture their products. There's this added element of whether Apple can really be blamed for any mistreatment of workers in these factories which aren't even directly under it.

The number of suicides can be helpful no doubt, but I'd rather see more concrete data like working hours, pay, welfare benefits, food, employer-employee relations etc. etc.

If you really have a problem with the way workers are treated in China and elsewhere, don't buy any products manufactured in those countries. That also means that much of what you own at present will have to be sold or destroyed, including most of your clothes, PCs, cell phones, MPS players, TVs, and most other manufactured goods.

Therein lies the rub. Can't live with it, can't live without it.