Student takeover at Evergreen State College

[Farm Boy]

Students at American universities seem to be becoming increasingly radicalized

Some of them have developed the nasty habit of saying "unsafe" in situations "uncomfortable" is the more accurate word.

But really. Our local community college got 4 bomb threats in rapid succession once. Kids didn't want to take finals. Don't have to take finals if the institution keeps closing That didn't make the news in a huge radius, I don't think. Eventually, they locked down all the entrances and exits but one, put the grounds crew on alert, stationed the county's finest at the door people could get in and out of, did bag checks, and reopened the damn institution. Somebody very well may be still in jail over that one, it's only been about 10.

 

[El_Machinae]

To help move this debate along, I'd like to point out that Commodore is not necessarily claiming actual persecution. Whether the persecution is actually occurring, in an objective sense, is irrelevant to the point. He is instead alluding to the subjective perception of persecution among whites, more specifically whites living non-coastal/non-urban areas, and even more specifically white males, and finally more specifically rust-belt white males.

So asking him to state who was persecuted, is missing the point. You should instead ask who felt persecuted... and I've answered that.

I suspect he was actually referring to the persecution of racist ideas, driving them underground. They simmer and fester and grow, because their root is not confronted. And then a person like Trump comes along, actively lies about Muslim Americans, actively forwards racist infographics, and actively bashes all types of foreigners .... and can easily get them to come out of the woodwork. And they forgive each other for voting for a gold-leafed babbler, because they're responding to the racist promise lying underneath. And remember the undercurrent of violence at those rallies.

The root wasn't cut out. It was buried. And while that can help sequester a meme far away, it doesn't stop it from growing locally in a new form that thrives in a suppressed environment.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

@Sommerswerd @El_Machinae

Great posts. Really helped with my understanding of what was going on in this thread. I agree with the main point (I think ?) of El_Machinae being that trump, consciously or unconsciously, legitimized racist behavior and violence.

 

[warpus]

You'll never cut out the roots of racism if society is so socio-economically fragmented along racial lines.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

You'll never cut out the roots of racism if society is so socio-economically fragmented along racial lines.

Everytime it seems to get better something completely beyond our control happens and things take a turn for the worse. In this world some utterly ridiculous things happen.

Remember when the CIA introduced Crack, easily one of the most damaging drugs ever created on this planet, into the most vulnerable black neighborhoods with the intention of destroying black families? What the funk was that about? Whose ass is there to be kicked for that? Just one missstep can lead to decades of suffering, a vicious cycle that many communities even today cannot break out of.

Now we have mass incarceration, youths growing up without dads or moms or both, whose role models are ex-gangsters pimped out by the record industry.

Just reading my own post I sound like a complete nutjob. This should all be a big conspiracy theory, but it isn't. There are so many factors holding down afro-Americans in the US for generations and generations to come.

 

[warpus]

Yeah, it's going to take generations for racial issues to start going away in the U.S.

And I know I'm not an American and just an outsider looking in, so I don't have view of the full picture, but y'all are headed in the wrong direction.

 

[civver_764]

Remember when the CIA introduced Crack, easily one of the most damaging drugs ever created on this planet, into the most vulnerable black neighborhoods with the intention of destroying black families? What the funk was that about? Whose ass is there to be kicked for that? Just one missstep can lead to decades of suffering, a vicious cycle that many communities even today cannot break out of.

I've never heard this before. Why do you think the CIA would want to destroy black families?

 

[Farm Boy]

There are pivotal differences between an Archie Bunker and a Cameron Alexander. If we want to be all Hollywood. I'm not sure a lot of people reliably demonstrate understanding of the difference. Maybe it all just looks very foreign and bigoted and old. That'd be understandable, but you have to remember those characters would hate each other. A lot. Archies are outmoded and rough, but they help build the future you want(Shalom). They lose sway to Camerons when hope dims, and they are sparring, quite literally, over who influences their sons(I won't have to. He'll come to me. I'm more important to him now than you'll ever be). I don't know what to do about deindustrialization, but how we address it, or don't, is going to impact which type of voice carries legitimacy, buried or basking in the light of day.

 

[Commodore]

Just reading my own post I sound like a complete nutjob. This should all be a big conspiracy theory, but it isn't.

I'm going to look up this whole "CIA introduced crack" claim. If it leads to nothing but conspiracy theory sites with no legitimate sources, I"m going to be very upset.

 

[Sommerswerd]

There are pivotal differences between an Archie Bunker and a Cameron Alexander. If we want to be all Hollywood. I'm not sure a lot of people reliably demonstrate understanding of the difference. Maybe it all just looks very foreign and bigoted and old. That'd be understandable, but you have to remember those characters would hate each other. A lot. Archies are outmoded and rough, but they help build the future you want(Shalom). They lose sway to Camerons when hope dims, and they are sparring, quite literally, over who influences their sons(I won't have to. He'll come to me. I'm more important to him now than you'll ever be). I don't know what to do about deindustrialization, but how we address it, or don't, is going to impact which type of voice carries legitimacy, buried or basking in the light of day.

This comparison makes it unnecessarily obscure. You have a better, apples-to-apples comparison, featuring the exact same dynamic you're referencing, all contained in the one film. It's displayed between Cameron Alexander and Dennis Vineyard. Dennis is the clear "Archie Bunker"-type character you're talking about and the movie accuses his attitude/way of raising his sons as, albeit unintentionally, creating the fertile ground for Cameron to swoop in later, given as you say, the right circumstances.

I think that is a more direct, cause-and-effect comparison, which makes it a little bit tougher to excuse the Archie Bunker guys, wouldn't you say?

Awesome movie BTW... one of the best I've ever seen.

 

[Farm Boy]

Oh no, I wanted Archie because of the environment that surrounded him. His environment improved, and he not only let it, he helped it. Archie loved his son, and you could tell, even if he was a stinkin' liberal. Dennis doesn't count. He was also a man with severe limitations, but he was removed. He couldn't provide, he couldn't temper his shortcomings through iteration, he couldn't protect(even if he hated, he'd still roll out to fight a fire, that's what men do). If we think that's a statement on white guys alone, we've missed a lot of the transferability, which I'm certain you know. Cameron fills a void with a type of strength. While I'd like to ask for it, I find it unreasonable to expect that fathers can reliably, through positive messaging and sheer force of love, counteract the negative energy of their failure especially in environments where their protection and support matter a lot. The void will still be there.

 

[Sommerswerd]

But that's simultaneously the problem with Archie in this context... he's too idealized. The point of Dennis that is so sharp, so stinging, so resonant and that I think makes him more accurate, is that he's temporary. That finite nature is what is real. You get one shot with your kids, and when your ride is up, its over and what you didn't get around to is just left undone, sometimes with little or no warning. You don't get the chance to fix everything, reconcile everything. There is no feel good romantic ending with all the loose ends tied up and the warms happy theme music playing at the end. You saw how "The Sopranos" ended? That's fatherhood. You gotta get it in while you can, because as much as you, me and all us father's would love to have a lifetime to work through all the baggage that we let seep into our children through outright indoctrination, or more often through unintentional osmosis... that's not how things usually work, especially if you're not in financial position to make excellent health a top priority. You drop a few stink bombs into your kids mind and you may or may not get a chance to clean it up later... so we have to be careful.

Remember... Derek was running on anger and poison the day his Dad died. It was already there, and Dennis put it there. We can't blame it on Cameron coming in to fill the "father figure" void.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I've never heard this before. Why do you think the CIA would want to destroy black families?

I'm going to look up this whole "CIA introduced crack" claim. If it leads to nothing but conspiracy theory sites with no legitimate sources, I"m going to be very upset.

Dear Commodore,

Now that I've taken this much time out of my day to supply you with stuff, do me the favor and reply to my posts

If you want something highly official, go with this:

https://oig.justice.gov/special/9712/ch01p1.htm

If you want something very scientific go with this:

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/sj6/mamdanigoodmuslimbadmuslim.pdf

(Mamdani, Mahmood: Good Muslim, Bad Muslim. A compendium about CIA action during the cold war, though not entirely about drugs it is a good portion of the book. Mamdani is one of my favorite researchers. A historian/anthropologist from Columbia University. Wrote the single best book on the Rwandan genocide there is. Trust me, I've read them all.)

If you want regular old journalism go with this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/10/gary-webb-dark-alliance_n_5961748.html

Very interestingly, the author who originally came up with this "conspiracy theory" (back then it was one..) had a terrible backlash, both publicly and from all of mainstream journalism.. He was ridiculed and bullied and ended up committing suicide more than ten years ago. Now CIA personnel is slowly "coming out" with more information.

If you are really lazy, this quote should do the deal for you:

After The Associated Press reported on these connections in 1985, for example, more than a decade before Webb, then-Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) launched a congressional investigation. In 1989, Kerry released a detailed report claiming that not only was there “considerable evidence” linking the Contra effort to trafficking of drugs and weapons, but that the U.S. government knew about it.

 

[Farm Boy]

But that's simultaneously the problem with Archie in this context... he's too idealized. The point of Dennis that is so sharp, so stinging, so resonant and that I think makes him more accurate, is that he's temporary. That finite nature is what is real. You get one shot with your kids, and when your ride is up, its over and what you didn't get around to is just left undone, sometimes with little or no warning. You don't get the chance to fix everything, reconcile everything. There is no feel good romantic ending with all the loose ends tied up and the warms happy theme music playing at the end. You saw how "The Sopranos" ended? That's fatherhood. You gotta get it in while you can, because as much as you, me and all us father's would love to have a lifetime to work through all the baggage that we let seep into our children through outright indoctrination, or more often through unintentional osmosis... that's not how things usually work, especially if you're not in financial position to make excellent health a top priority. You drop a few stink bombs into your kids mind and you may or may not get a chance to clean it up later... so we have to be careful.

Remember... Derek was running on anger and poison the day his Dad died. It was already there, and Dennis put it there. We can't blame it on Cameron coming in to fill the "father figure" void.

I got 5 minutes into The Sopranos and turned it off, so you'll have to link or explain that one, sorry. I loathe gangster movies almost as much as Tarantino. Just line up all the characters in the first 20 seconds, shoot most of them, rape a different one, then let one live. Whooo, fun. Then they can go play with Game of Thrones. Excellent examples of their genre, I'm sure. Full of artistic merit and deep meaning, of course.

Archie is, of course, idealized. As is Dennis for actually dying before he totally lost control of his son. Men lose control of their sons on the regular. You can absolutely blame Cameron for his role. Or do children not rebel? No hippies from Green Berets? No drunks from teetotalers? No womanizers from faithful men? No racists from the gentle? I don't believe it, but I'd listen to the argument. Yah, you get one crack and some guys are going to lose. Not just the crappy ones either, especially if they see listening to the old man as being a trap of shame and powerlessness. Hell, moms lose this fight all the time and if anything, they're stronger.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Sopranos is actually great, though. I can think of very few great gangster movies aside from the godfather. City of Gods, the Brazilian movie, is excellent, as is Departed or the ingenious Korean original that the Americans stole from.

 

[Farm Boy]

Dislike The Godfather too, bleh. It's simply glorious, of course. But bleh.

 

[Commodore]

Dear Commodore,

Now that I've taken this much time out of my day to supply you with stuff, do me the favor and reply to my posts

If you want something highly official, go with this:

https://oig.justice.gov/special/9712/ch01p1.htm

If you want something very scientific go with this:

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/sj6/mamdanigoodmuslimbadmuslim.pdf

(Mamdani, Mahmood: Good Muslim, Bad Muslim. A compendium about CIA action during the cold war, though not entirely about drugs it is a good portion of the book. Mamdani is one of my favorite researchers. A historian/anthropologist from Columbia University. Wrote the single best book on the Rwandan genocide there is. Trust me, I've read them all.)

If you want regular old journalism go with this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/10/gary-webb-dark-alliance_n_5961748.html

Very interestingly, the author who originally came up with this "conspiracy theory" (back then it was one..) had a terrible backlash, both publicly and from all of mainstream journalism.. He was ridiculed and bullied and ended up committing suicide more than ten years ago. Now CIA personnel is slowly "coming out" with more information.

If you are really lazy, this quote should do the deal for you:

Yeah, everything I've looked up so far says the CIA knew about the drug trafficking, but turned a blind eye to it because those cartels were helping the CIA. However, there's nothing to suggest that the CIA deliberately introduced crack into black neighborhoods specifically for the purpose of harming black people. It seems it was really more of a case of them just not caring that the crack was ending up in black neighborhoods.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I got 5 minutes into The Sopranos and turned it off, so you'll have to link or explain that one, sorry. I loathe gangster movies almost as much as Tarantino. Just line up all the characters in the first 20 seconds, shoot most of them, rape a different one, then let one live. Whooo, fun. Then they can go play with Game of Thrones. Excellent examples of their genre, I'm sure. Full of artistic merit and deep meaning, of course.

Archie is, of course, idealized. As is Dennis for actually dying before he totally lost control of his son. Men lose control of their sons on the regular. You can absolutely blame Cameron for his role. Or do children not rebel? No hippies from Green Berets? No drunks from teetotalers? No womanizers from faithful men? No racists from the gentle? I don't believe it, but I'd listen to the argument. Yah, you get one crack and some guys are going to lose. Not just the crappy ones either, especially if they see listening to the old man as being a trap of shame and powerlessness. Hell, moms lose this fight all the time and if anything, they're stronger.

But that's part of my point... Dennis died when he had control... that's an even stronger reason why he's gotta own some of that blame. As you say, he didn't have time to lose control. The Derek he left behind was the Derek of his making, not Cameron's. He drove the car to the crossroads and got out, then Cameron took it down the right fork instead of straight. If he hadn't dropped the car off in Cameron's neighborhood, Cameron would've never got his hands on the wheel. It's not about a son rebelling. Who are they rebelling against anyway? You. Whether they follow you or rebel against you, its still about you, what you did, what you taught (or didn't). When your son rebels, he will rebel in the way that you taught him to against things that you are doing/saying/teaching. Dennis seemed like a good Dad, but he, like all of us, saddled his kid with his baggage. I'm not willing to let him blame Cameron for the path that he put his son on.

About the Sopranos... no need to watch it. The point is that you just die and its over. Your mistakes and unfinished business goes unresolved. Your kids are stuck with whatever you gave them in the time that you had. No music, no romanticism, no all finished feel or reconciliation, you're dead, period, full stop,The End.

Dislike The Godfather too, bleh. It's simply glorious, of course. But bleh.

Peter Griffin agrees with you... and I imagine for the same reasons:

FTR, I completely get what Peter is saying... although I am in the "love the Godfather" camp.

 

[Farm Boy]

I thought about that clip, mostly I just hate all the characters. They're all the bad guys. The sooner they get to shivving each other the sooner we get to plant them. I just don't want to watch their violence porn, it doesn't "stiffen" my "resolve."

I will blame Archies for not being a better guy, but I'm not going to villianize him. His language is absent in my house. It will be punishable if it appears twice. But men don't just drop their kids off in neighborhoods, they live in the same world as their sons for a (usually) partially overlapping time.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I will blame Archies for not being a better guy, but I'm not going to villianize him.

The bolded is the key really and its the hard part, because we are all so vain, so self righteous, so self assured and in love with the idea of our own flawless, faultless, virtue, that we struggle with the idea that people are not perfect and can not be perfect. It doesn't come naturally at all... the idea of giving people a break... especially not people we disagree with, or aren't friends/allies with.