1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Suggestions and Requests

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Sep 11, 2014.

  1. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Properly Paranoid Proletarian

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,733
    Location:
    The cooler Germany
    So you are saying you are a traitor then? Insolent Americans, always going on about their precious independence.

    Let me just go out and say it: Your country isn't important enough to be its own civilization. Now shut your trap and go salute the nearest Union Jack ya bloody :) :) :) :):) :) :) :):) :) :) :):) :) :) :):) :) :) :):) :) :) :)! (Edit: Oh come on that gets censored? Okay fine, traitor to the crown will suffice)

    That's what I'm afraid of: More and more civilizations being added one after the other, each more unimportant than the last one, doing nothing but hogging computer resources, needlessly complicating diplomacy and constraining the expansion of real civilizations. And for what? To pander to the petty patriotic pride of this or that poor puny pony people? Pah! Platitudes! Parley? Perhaps ponder pushing Platon and Putin as leaderheads instead. (Okay maybe I went overboard with the alliteration there.)
     
  2. 2015

    2015 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2014
    Messages:
    98
    I mean I wouldnt mind Putin as a leaderhead...

    Also Canada's different. There's a good chunk of people who play this mod who are from Canada and Canada, even if it's not an "important" country historically it is a really large country. Only other "useless" civ I could see added is Australia and they are a pretty big portion of the map too.

    Maybe if it hogs up resources Canada could be conditional (is it? I don't know) like Argentina
     
  3. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Properly Paranoid Proletarian

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,733
    Location:
    The cooler Germany
    Yes, conditional, please. If you must add so many irrelevant civs at least make them optional, so they only pop up for sure if the human is playing a civ in its vicinity, like with China and that rabbel of rebel scum in the mountains in the western part of its sovereign territory.
     
  4. adhiraj.bose

    adhiraj.bose Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    2,038
    Location:
    Pune, India
    I was playing a game as France earlier, and I had cities across North America from Miquelon to Fort Esperance. All these Northern cities (including one over Lake Ontario) flipped to Canada in 1867. This is excessive. Many vital resources and land area including one oil resource would be lost if I had agreed to the flip. Now I'm at war with Canada when I was in a position to take over Germany with advanced infantry and artillery. I was even building the Apollo mission ! Instead I have to make War with Canada who don't even have enough troops to defend themselves against my huge army !

    It is just one big irritant. What's more, I was actually solid and I wasn't even controlling the Canadian core in Montreal. Canada if its to be there, must be conditional. There is nothing exceptional about Canada that it has to spawn compulsorily.
     
  5. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,702
    This is the most important contribution of civs like Canada, Australia and South Africa. To restrict the human player of free ahistoric cities. These are the three large areas with good production that isnt contested otherwise. I think Australia should flip New Zealand area as well (pretending they are one nation).
     
  6. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Properly Paranoid Proletarian

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,733
    Location:
    The cooler Germany
    I knew it!

    Also wait a minute... Aren't you the same guy that infected Leoreth's mind with the absurd idea of nerfing Central Planning into the ground? I shall have my eye on you, and any further "suggestions" you make, because I think I might have finally found the capitalist propagandist who seems to be pulling the strings behind all the negative developments in this mod lately...
     
  7. Eric Cartmenez

    Eric Cartmenez Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    247
    Location:
    ...in Limbo
    :lol: c'mon Knoedel, you are hilarious, go on
     
  8. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    9,615
    Not true. What do all the civs do in vanila in order to win? Basically the same thing. Every new civ in DoC requires from the player to do something different. Like obtain a city without declaring a war! How is that for a variety in the game play? Canada is the second largest country in the world and gives US a little more interesting run for their money. Late game balance in the number of civs between old civs and new civs is better.

    Australia and Central Asian Turkic civ are the only big black holes this mod still needs to fill, in my opinion. The only nation that owns a continent deserves to be in the game. And Turkic people do need a playable civ instead of Barbarian-like Seljuks.
     
  9. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,454
    Location:
    Ireland
    If you don't like Canada, don't play as Canada.
     
  10. 2015

    2015 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2014
    Messages:
    98
    Honestly I think these new respawns provide a good challenge to colonial civs. It's not like Spain and Britain have their colonial empires now. Both of these countries aren't as powerful in the world as they were before and that kind of historicity should be represented in the mod. Personally, it should be up to the player to reclaim the nations that decide to rebel.

    The only problem I can see coming out of adding modern civs to fill up the old colonial cities is the performance issue with multiple civs, which will be fixed with Leoreth disconnecting civs from civ slots.

    One other thing (that would probably make people like Imp. Knoedal happy) would be to make ALL New World civs conditional, but to certain degrees. "influential" post-colonial nations like America, India, Brazil, etc. would definitely be a priority and so even if a player is stable, these nations will be born. Other, smaller colonial nations like Peru, Argentina, Canada (maybe), a proposed South Africa, etc. would only spawn when the player is unstable. That way, bigger world powers are still represented to a degree but we could have a cool butterfly effect for our games :)
     
  11. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Properly Paranoid Proletarian

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,733
    Location:
    The cooler Germany
    What have Australia or Canada ever accomplished?

    There are no black holes, only the souvereign territory of Her Majesty!

    If anything I might accept South Africa as its own civ, since it has its own distinct culture and is more or less independent, while Canada's and Australia's cultures don't differ much at all from British. Honestly, name me a single event of geopolitical importance in the last 50 years where Canada and Australia weren't on the same side as the UK!

    I'd rather have Ireland as a civ than Canada and Australia! The Irish actually are independent, and fought long and hard for their freedom!

    But Canada and Australia never rebelled! They still cooperate with the UK in all relevant matters, economically and militarily! India is fine because it fought for its independent and established its own presence in the world as a third world (using the Cold War definition here) nation. So did Iberian America.

    I fail to see how disconnecting civs from civ slots has any effect on performance whatsoever.

    Yes the third paragraph I can work with, please make all those wannabe civs conditional so they only spawn when the current owner of their territory is unstable or independent/barbarian.

    You know what else would be great? If there was more of a short term benefit to colonizing. Currently no one in their right mind would settle the American east coast as England unless they want to switch to America later. Even for the UHV settling to the north, which Canada flips, gives you more bang for your back as they spawn later. The thing is, the way expansion currently works cities have an upfront cost (hammers for settler, worker, garrison and upkeep) that makes them an investment that will pay off long term once population has grown and infrastructure is in place, but that's not what pretty much all colonial empires did. Quite the opposite in fact, colonies were all about short term profit, mostly resources for their masters, but I feel that is not properly represented in the game. Not that it's not represented at all mind you, Trading Companies and Slaves are some very nice features in that regard, allowing your colonies to become productive very quickly while the features themselves lose their value in the long term (Trading Company because it obsoletes and Slaves because their unhappiness constricts growth). In practice however this often doesn't work as it should. Congo gets killed by Portugal too often, and even if it doesn't it is a very unreliable source of slaves. The only way to get a decent supply of them is to directly control one or more cities in Africa yourself, but apart from Portugal that's not really historical, as the bulk of African colonialism by Europeans happened in the 19th century, when slavery was already abolished.

    Also there imo should be some sort of bonus to granting independence, like a relation bonus with all leaders. Something like "You liberated your colonies." Currently there is just no reason you should let go of land you control like ever, as the benefits of more production and commerce are just too good to pass up on.

    Well I guess I went offtopic there. Maybe this better belongs in Suggestions and Requests.
     
  12. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Properly Paranoid Proletarian

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,733
    Location:
    The cooler Germany
    But I want to play as England, and those bloody rebels ruin my day with their insolence. :mad:

    Also increased turn times and frequency of crashes! Won't somebody please think of people with weak computers? :sad:
     
  13. Lokki242

    Lokki242 That One Guy

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,001
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    All this part of your post did was show how little you know about Canadian and Australian culture. If we have to be compared, we're more American than British.

    But we're more in touch with our Native American culture than the United States is, as represented by our heavy use of totems, inukshuks, etc. The government of Nunavut, one of our largest regions is primarily Inuit.

    We also are hugely in touch with our East and South Asian immigrants, who make up a large portion of the population and have slowly been changing the environment of British Columbia in particular. Additionally, when has the U.S. disagreed with British foreign policy in any significant way in the last 50 years?

    Leoreth included Canada to begin with presumably because he liked the country, and was proud and interested in creating a unique country with a unique culture. Brits come here and think we're odd, same with Americans. If you want them gone so urgently, get one of the many coders here to make a sub-mod for you, rather than distracting Leoreth from doing something more relevant.

    EDIT: I do appreciate your sense of humor though, and I don't mean to try and start a flame war or anything. I'm just very proud of my country and don't like it when people undersell us :) (there is a reason that we actually have jurisdiction over a memorial area in France due to our actions in the First World War, and we aren't in the G8 just because people felt like including us. We earned our position there.

    I'll stop rambling. Apologies if I came across as rude or overly defensive
     
  14. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,702
    A few observations:

    1. Seems like Knoedel wants an eternal British Empire. No Canada, no Australia and hardly South Africa. Moreover, no flips in South America if owner is stable. Which a human player mostly is.

    2. Also, seems like Knoedel doesnt want to upgrade his slow computer. By making Leo remove civs he can hold on to it a few more years while he waits for a new PC allotment.
     
  15. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Properly Paranoid Proletarian

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,733
    Location:
    The cooler Germany
    Suez Cris- wait a minute... *looks at a calender* How can it be 2016 already? :eek:

    I think him including Canada has more to do with him thinking that it is a nice addition from both gameplay and flavor perspectives, (and I say he is wrong about that) than pride or personal preference.

    Also I honestly feel offended that you don't believe me to be able to do that myself in my own modmod, which I have been working on for months now and which I thought had made quite the big impact around here. (I know for a fact that at least three unique people have played it! That's almost half a dozen!) It's just easier to try convincing Leoreth about this or that with incessant whining than actually doing stuff myself, but you better believe that I will make Canada conditional as soon as I feel like it! (And read up on how to do that...)

    Ah, national pride, my eternal nemesis.

    Is that too much to ask for? I would offer up an independent Ireland in exchange though. Just make them to a prospective Celtic civ what Austria is to Holy Rome, wich core changing from Great Britain to Ireland under certain conditions or something.

    I do want to upgrade my slow computer, and have been planning to do so for over a year now. It may be difficult to believe but we can't all buy a brand new high end gaming PC every other month like you are apparently able to. For what it's worth I will probably build a computer next month, as irony would have it.
     
  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    34,484
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    House of Hades
    Until more ink is spilled on this: I'm not going to remove anything that I spent work on adding. That means I thought my decision through.

    People who have their own mod probably should just remove Canada there instead of building the great wall of text in here.
     
  17. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Properly Paranoid Proletarian

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    8,733
    Location:
    The cooler Germany
    Central Planning! Theocracy + Secularism! Labor and Economy civics being completely nonsensical!

    Also the discussion has now moved on from straight up removing Canada to making its spawn conditional.
     
  18. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,106
    Location:
    Canada
    Suez Crisis? Iraq War? (For Canada anyway)
     
  19. Grifguz

    Grifguz Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2014
    Messages:
    226
    I as well. It adds realism and a UHV challenge that takes a lot more diplomacy.


    As far as suggestions, from what I see in SVN 1000 or 1001 is the HRE dominates Europe in 9/10 3000 BC games I do in Asia and outside Europe in general. By the 1300's, they've conquered France, subjugated or conquered Poland, and engage Spain/Russia, ultimately winning big. They usually end up conquering Iberia or Moscow.

    Also, I was wondering if it would be possible in the future to have individualized minor civs, like in Civilizations in Abundance. Not that it would really be different, but it would make the independents more unique.
     
  20. adhiraj.bose

    adhiraj.bose Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    2,038
    Location:
    Pune, India
    Well if we are going to add more civs, then I would strongly suggest a native American civ to be present throughout the mid-west and the Canadian hinterland. This will do two things, it will make the colonization of that region more challenging and it will nerf the ability of civs controlling that region to buff it up.

    While we're at it, a celtic civ would be a welcome addition to Europe and perhaps a non-playable Germanic civ that starts from the migration era rather than just barbs. Oh and something should be done about the Siberian emptiness in the absence of an expansionist Russia.
     

Share This Page