Suggestions for new GOTMs

[Lanzelot]

Here are a few suggestions as to what kind of games I would like to see in future GOTM/COTM games. Not that I didn't like the ones that civ_steve has prepared for us in the past -- quite the contrary: they were great! I never had so much fun playing Civ as I have now since I participate in the GOTMs! These suggestions here are only meant to make it easier for civ_steve to come up with new ideas.

Recently we either had games on very high difficulty level with extremely good starting positions (GOTM71, COTM43), or "normal" games (medium difficulty, average starting position), or low difficulty level with lousy starting position (GOTM72). In other words, the game had always been set up so that it was winable with good play. Therefore my first suggestion is

• A game on Demigod/Deity/Sid with only average starting position. In other words, a game that is "impossible" to win even for the great masters. The question will then be: who can delay the inevitable for the longest time?

Another idea is:

• When C3C came out, I enjoyed playing the scenarios very much. How about having this kind of game once in the GOTM? I know, it's a completely different game (no initial expansion phase, no settlers in some, limited tech tree, focus on military and/or "victory points" and/or kings/princesses, etc.) So I don't know, how you'd like that.

And finally:

• Recently we had some "modified" games (COTM43, COTM45). Is it possible to modify a civilization so that it has all of the civ-specific traits? I'd like to see, if that would be enough to take on Sid on otherwise even terms (no overly enriched starting position).

Please let me know what you think of these ideas.

Lanzelot

 

[TheOverseer714]

I find those extremely difficult ones to not be very fun. I think to spice things up is good, but it has to be playable in a month. I noticed that in COTM-43, a large percentage of submissions were unfinished, including my own. So the big picture has to include time restraints and playability. Maybe you should just up your level to Predator for those challenge aspects. I enjoyed the modded civs, and I like the current COTM mod of boosted traits. The 9/3/3 Sipahi rocks! Here's an idea for another xotm: all civs having the same major trait be in the game. Say "Britain rules the seas" with all seafaring civs on an archipelago map. Or "Sumeria, king of corn", with all agricultural civs on a Pangaea. Or all religious, or all European or all middle-eastern. Many things could be done without snubbing all of us hard-working lower level players who only dream of being half as good as Klarius.

 

[Lanzelot]

I find those extremely difficult ones to not be very fun. I think to spice things up is good, but it has to be playable in a month.

I can see, what you are saying. Playing an interesting an and winnable game is certainly a lot of fun. But on the other hand: perhaps this is only my personal "strange" taste, but once in a while I like to fight against overwhelming powers, hanging on by just a thin hair, an uphill struggle where every mistake could be the last one... This gives the game an "extra kick", even if I loose in the end! And I think it makes it more interesting, if you can't take it for granted, that you will win in the end. (Of course it would then have to be a game that even klarius is not able to win... Otherwise it would indeed be a bit unfair for us average players.)

And also consider: this doesn't necessarily mean it has to be long game not playable in a month. The game may be over very quickly...

Of course I'm not suggesting we should have this regularly. Just once to try it out and see how it feels like and how people like it!

Regards, Lanzelot

 

[TheOverseer714]

I was perusing the map gallery they just put up, and I noticed several Deity, Demigod, and even 2 Sid level COTM's, so it's not always Emperor and below. As I said, if you want greater challenges, play a Sid one as predator. I don't think everyone is a Masochist, and the games have to be playable to appeal to everyone. We all know Klarius will win anyway, so the challenge is to win the game and at least get some award, or a semi-decent score. After all, the real goal is to play better, and impossible does not improve anyone's score. As it is, I haven't submitted in any of the deity or demigod COTM's, I'm just not good enough. I submitted a loss in the DG GOTM as India, which was too humiliating to ever do again. Go to the new map gallery and look at the number of submissions, the higher the difficulty and the bigger the map, the lower the number of submissions. Remember, the GOTM's are predicated on general interest.

 

[tR1cKy]

The main problem here is the low number of submissions.
With civ4 being mainstream, players are progressively llosing interest in civ3.
We need to revamp the interest in civ3, and in the GOTMs in particular.

Masochist-type games? Nope. Only a few braves would pick up the challenge, the most would simply give up.

Heavily modified games? No way. Many people wouldn't like them.

Scenarios? Perhaps...

 

[Quintillus]

Maybe it's just the games I've been playing, but it seems like Greece, Rome, Egypt, and Carthage are always my neighbors in COTM/GOTM. It does make expansion more difficult, but surely we could survive some Iroquois or Russian neighbors every once in a while?

Other than many of the same opponents, I've been quite pleased with the GOTM's of late. I didn't feel masochistic enough to try the Polynesia Sid game despite all the neat modifications, but the bonus on UU's was a great idea for this month.

I like the scenario idea, though deciding which one it should be would be difficult. Always thought it would be cool to compare conquests of the Mediterranean/Europe/the Americas.

Perhaps one with extremely poor resources nearby? Such as no luxuries on until the other end of the continent (or the other continent) or no iron/horses/saltpeter/rubber for tens of thousands of miles? Just to throw a monkey wrench in strategies and force Archer rushes. Just to be extra cruel you could put India between any resources, and give someone on the continent Ivory so they could have lots of Ancient Cavalry, but be out of reach to stop before they ammassed a good number of them. Perhaps a nice "extra luxury" (Ivory) could be the "bonus" for Predator.

Or you could have a ginormous ocean between one continent and the other and decrease Galley movement (perhaps only on Predator) rate to slow down anyone trying to be the tech broker/early other continent invader.

I'd also keep some of the neat changes at average difficulties - Polynesia was great, but let's not have every similar game on Sid!

Overall, I think civ_steve will know which ideas will work and which just won't; hopefully we can come up with some good ones.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Maybe the onus is on us as denizens to create more of a buzz on the GOTM forums. I know I for one have done very few write-ups in the spoiler threads, since getting broadband at home 18 months ago (in fact it is because I used to write them at work , where I had taken my save file and log so I could submit the game).
I do try and drop a mention of the GOTM in the General Discussions and Strat forums whenever I can.

 

[Più Freddo]

One suggestion would be to get the pre-game discussion thread out on time, say three days before game start?

 

[ThinkTank]

Maybe the onus is on us as denizens to create more of a buzz on the GOTM forums. I know I for one have done very few write-ups in the spoiler threads, since getting broadband at home 18 months ago (in fact it is because I used to write them at work , where I had taken my save file and log so I could submit the game).
I do try and drop a mention of the GOTM in the General Discussions and Strat forums whenever I can.

I certainly think it would help to have more detailed spoilers of the strong players. This would help the other players to learn more about how to play the game properly, and it would possibly take away the intimidation that we feel at the high scores, by showing us how it is done. (On a similar note, I find that there are not enough write-ups of high score games in the HOF.)

So here is a suggestion: it would be nice if each xOTM has a "spot-light player", this is one of the top players that commits him/her self to writing a very detailed spoiler for that game. This "spot-light player" can alternate between games, so that the work does not fall on one player only.

 

[greatbeyond]

Back in the old days, there was the tournament series. I believe that there were 5 or 6 Tournament series each consisting of 5 or 6 games. What made it interesting at the end were the games with special victory conditions. I don't remember them all exactly, but they were like:
First to get 50,000 gold
First to earn 5,000 gold/turn
only one victory condition

 

[civ_steve]

One suggestion would be to get the pre-game discussion thread out on time, say three days before game start?

But that would mean I'd have to be much more organized than I am ... which is hardly at all! Add in the pressures of last-minute Valentine's Day stuff and I get really distracted. And here we are again, 20 minutes to game start and nothing up. Soooo, I'll get a GOTM76 pre-game out in the next hour or so, and we'll delay a day, and add a day. (Sorry)

I appreciate the discussion, and I think it gives all the players a place to put in their thoughts, and reminisce a bit. Expands the community, too, by having a broader focus than just playing the games and posting spoilers.

My key concern is to set up a game that is generally winnable by the average player here, but not make it a total cake walk, either. Allow good strategy to carry the day, and reduce randomness to the extent I can. Some of the mods I made to the Sid Polynesia game would completely overpower the AI at a more normal level, and I think competition would then suffer. It's that balancing act that is most important - not too difficult that players are driven to frustration, and not too easy that players don't feel challenged. The unfortunate part of this is that difficult starting positions are generally set up for the easier levels, and more food-rich, resource-rich starting locations at the higher, so I might have to mix this up a bit more.

I also realize that we can't play the same game over and over. Variety will be important. Massive mods should be rare as a lot of players will not want to learn a 'new' game just to play; but a special game like Polynesia every now and then should be fun. And perhaps incorporate elements of simple mods here and there.

The tournament was interesting and different, but it also really skewed the submittals towards the chosen VC for that game. With the lower number of players participating now I'd think that effect would be more extreme, or random. The concept might have to be reworked for today's Civ3 GOTM to be useable.

There's more to discuss, but I better work on GOTM76. Please keep your ideas coming.

 

[Aigburth]

Something I think which could enhance the competition is the speed at which the results are published. I have no idea what is involved in this and I know that the staff do this completely voluntarily so this is not a criticism of the staff. If there is a way this can be sped up I think this could encourage first time or occasional players to play regularly.

 

[PaperBeetle]

^^ It isn't something which really worries me, as I'm not likely to leave these forums any time soon. But I do know that a contributing factor in the retirement of Wardancer (who I know in RL) was the wait for results to appear. He moved on to online RTS, where the rankings update on a continuous basis. Obviously that kind of instant feedback isn't possible in the GOTM format, but still it's worth mentioning that the changing rankings (even if you are falling, as I am at the moment) are still a significant mechanism for hooking some players.

 

[Red Horse]

Some excellent ideas posted so far.

Allow me to toss in "my two cents".

First, make this a sticky thread to keep the ideas flowing.

Second, offering victory awards for first time submitters or low submission players.

Third, offering a difficulty level above predator may provide a fresh challenge for some of the better players (with an appropriate multiplier for score).

 

[tR1cKy]

Third, offering a difficulty level above predator may provide a fresh challenge for some of the better players (with an appropriate multiplier for score).

Alien-class games... mhhh... sounds good...
Say 1 level above and some pesky extra handicaps...

 

[bluebox]

I was coming back here after quite some time for fun of it ... it's still there! I have thought about the following issues before discovering this thread so I quote them:

One suggestion would be to get the pre-game discussion thread out on time, say three days before game start?

Starting the pre-game discussion a little bit earlier again than it usually seems to happen now would add to the personal tension and the community feeling IMO. I was missing a bit of the countdown feeling.

Something I think which could enhance the competition is the speed at which the results are published. I have no idea what is involved in this and I know that the staff do this completely voluntarily so this is not a criticism of the staff. If there is a way this can be sped up I think this could encourage first time or occasional players to play regularly.

When I am getting the game results 1 or 2 months after submission I already forgot about how I played the game and comparison to results of others isn't so exiting anymore.

I wondered why it takes so long to get the results b/c AFAIK there were put a lot of efforts in automating the process as much as possible. OTOH, when I see there are +/- 350 submissions to cIV gotms there are surely a lot of issues to be solved with each hosted game.

These two suggestions have nothing to do with actual game design. All-in-all, I'm with those who'd guess that too experimental games inevitably spoil public appeal. BTW, one could always sign in to an SGOTM for more kind of games!!

Talking about game design, topologically unusual games excite me. I always enjoyed hand-made / heavily tweaked maps most! I think there is still agreat potential for exciting games by setting up std. civs on custom maps.

Finally, some words about ideas concerning the community: Triggered by the gallery, we might see a rising interest in replays of all kind, as single player runs or sucession games. The staff + community could come ahead with ways to provide a public space for such a demand, e.g. by setting up a sub-forum.

B/c this approach could divert even more players from committing to the regular competition, maybe it would be better to take some "legendary" games and e.g. convert them from Vanilla to PTW/C3C, reset the human player civ, raise the diff. level by one or two, pimp them, change a twist or flaw of a game (if there ever had been any ) and re-host them.

 

[Smirk]

Take a tip from the world of buisness, set up a email announce list. I would probably play more games if I knew of what new aspects are being played in any given month. Of course I could just check the boards but time is limited at times. I always check my email.

Anyway I like the idea of Sid with more traits. I like that more than the reverse, easier difficulty with reduced resources or other restrictions. The latter just makes the game boring and only delays the inevitable. Although truth be told its a bit annoying to play a jacked up cheating AI, so high level with extra resources can be tedious. Moderate difficulty with new twists is the best formula, in my opinion. Consider that the real contest is against the other humans on the leader board, not the AI.

 

[AlanH]

Email list servers are sooo yesterday! You can get an RSS feed from this forum. To get it delivered as emails, Google 'RSS email' for plenty of free delivery services. Just submit your email address and the URL for this forum to one of them.

Or check the facilities in your existing email client. Apple Mail, for example, has built-in RSS feed monitoring, so I can see new threads and posts automagically.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I had one of my typical "It's the middle of the night, I can't sleep inspirations".
How about alternate UU's? Say for America, a Colonial Rifleman, a 5 or 6/6/1 replacement for the standard Rifleman, or a supercarrier that carries 8 planes? The viking longboat, with caravel carrying capacity and stats (and shield cost) available with Map-Making. Or the camel-riding Mamelukes, with stronger defense (4/4/2) and no need for horses, replacing the knight for the Ottomans. The Ottomans could also have the Janissary, a much cheaper and slightly weaker rifleman, say 4/5/1. Alternate UU's would definately change the standard strategies for particular civs. I suppose much of this exists in the Mods forum, but as long as it didn't require extra downloads, it would be doable as a COTM. I really enjoyed the last 2 which were modded but not to an extreme level.

 

[denyd]

The Rise & Rule Mod pack has 2x of units, techs, improvements & wonders, but it does require a download.

I'd be interested in more games like the polynesian game (just not a huge map as my computer can't handle them).

There were quite a few games a couple years ago with Asian Flavor units and special Mongolian units. Those were quite challenging. We also had the Minoans with there UU the Peltast.

Another thing to consider would be replacing the standard barbarian units with swordsmen, knights & privateers.