Sullla's AI Survivor Season Eight - Game 6 Thread

Plains-Cow

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Sullla's AI Survivor Season 8 continues this Friday, July 19th on Sullla's Twitch Channel at noon EDT.

AI Survivor returns this week with a field ranging from peaceniks to warmongers to those in-betweeners that like to make-or-break games; there's quite some hype about these AIs. Joseph Stalin has made it to multiple championship games, winning one of them. Gandhi, one of the most peaceful and unique leaders in CIV IV, has come in first place in games multiple times and surprised everyone last year by declaring war on his religious ally but has never won a championship. Joao is a bit of a wildcard who won a game last year via diplomacy, quite the rarity in AI Survivor. Napoleon has yet to win a single game, but he loves to case havoc for all involved. Likewise with Ragnar, who is like Napoleon but turned up to 11. You can expect these two AIs to certainly cause some DOW drama, usually always at the expense of their own games. Roosevelt is tied with Ragnar in 48th place out of 52 AI leaders but for completely opposite reasons. The Velt frequently falters, never quite making any headway as he enjoys espionage spending which the AI never really seems to put to good use (aside from poisoning wells and triggering DOWs from bad relations). Finally, Victoria rounds out the group, having her most impressive victory being when she settled a double-digit number of cities peacefully and teched her way to the win. Expect her to like the peaceful Gandhi and Roosevelt, but unfortunately, she is also ranked quite low at 46th out of 52 leaders.

Screenshot 2024-07-15 at 09-08-06 Civ4 AI Survivor 8.png



Watch the preview here, read up on the game here, and join in the fun by making your predictions here. (You can check out the current picks here). And a hearty welcome to all to discuss the game in this thread and follow along for what will hopefully continue to be a dynamic and entertaining season!

And if one contest just isn't enough, check out the friendly casino thread presented by @Fippy (AKA My)!
 
Gandhi could get lucky here imo..
no iceball land in his corner (fewer barb problems), Nappy is ofc a ticking time bomb but him and Roosy will also have immediate border tension (and bad relations).
Gold mine start which his worker can improve right away.
Potential ally south in Joao who maybe shelters him from Stalin.
 
Seeding Watch:
Stalin
currently holds the 8th seed, with an overall power ranking of 34 points that hasn't been bolstered since his championship run in Season 4. He is now in imminent danger of losing his Pool One status; Suryavarman is a mere 2 points behind him, so this could easily be the end of his tenure if he doesn't accomplish anything in this game. (On the other hand, the next closest leader below him who still can play this season is eight points behind, providing a little more of a buffer.) On the flip side, Stalin can easily move back up with a good performance here. A second place finish or two kills moves him ahead of Gilgamesh for the 7 seed. A second place finish with a kill moves him ahead of Julius Caesar in 6th, with two kills puts him over Kublai Khan in 5th. A win would let him jump Pacal for the 4 seed, and a really dominant three kill win would also pass Justinian to put him all the way up in the 3 seed. Lots at stake this game for the Season 3 champion.

Gandhi has been slipping in recent years, and is now down to the 14 seed, with 25 total points and 3 last season. He has a small buffer as he is guaranteed to remain ahead of Mao and Hannibal, but there are still four active leaders within four points of his score, so a drop to unseeded status may be imminent if he can't make anything of this match. On the other hand, the clustered nature of Pool Two gives him a lot of room to move upward if he does find success. A single point leapfrogs him above Louis, Alex, and Burger King, while a win would put him back above Darius and at the top of the pool. He's not attaining Pool One this game no matter what, though.

All five unseeded leaders have low enough scores at this point that they would need multiple strong performances to crack the ranks of the seeded. It's not happening this game.



So, this map. I thought when assessing in the preseason that this was the most unpredictable map, and judging by the predictions so far, the community agrees. The high peaceweights have the advantage of numbers, but feel more vulnerable. They could well just all sit back and watch each other get conquered.

To me, the most important thing about this map is that there is considerably more room in the south. Not only are the leaders spaced further apart, they also have extra land to settle in their backlines where the northern leaders just have water. Yes, it's mostly tundra and ice, but it's still land and still ultimately helps the Deity AIs. This reminds me a lot of the map for Season 1 Game 6, and (spoiler) the extra space to settle turned into a major advantage for the three southern leaders there. Things might go differently here because of the different personalities involved (in the other game, the three southern leaders were all peaceful builder personalities and thus well suited to take advantage), but I still highly suspect that one of the southern trio is going to emerge on top, and in particular would be rather surprised by a Napoleon, Roosevelt, or Victoria win.

Which of the three, though? Joao has the worst land, Stalin has the most dangerous position, and Ragnar is Ragnar. Still not an easy game to predict!

Let's start with the Pool One leader, Stalin. He's currently the narrow favorite in the picking contest, and I can't really argue with those who are picking him to win. His position has a TON of potential: room to expand (peacefully or militarily) in every direction, lots of good land nearby, and guaranteed early copper. All the pieces are there and I would be shocked if he didn't submit multiple wins in the alternate histories. On the other hand, his start will be slower than it should be thanks to lack of early culture (probably; six of these leaders don't push Mysticism, though, so one or two are going to randomly go for a religion at some point in all likelihood, and that would be a big help for Stalin if he did so). His position is also extremely dangerous, and he has no reliable allies for this game: four leaders have high peaceweight and won't like him, while the other two are crazy warmongers, so they'll like him but might attack him anyway! I'm sure there are many timelines where he gets dogpiled or suffers a fatal backstab. Overall, then, I think Stalin has an extremely high-variance setup here. He could perform just about anywhere along the spectrum and is absolutely a reasonable, if by no means safe, pick to win.

Joao is, I think, the safest bet on this map to move on to the playoffs. He has a southern position, and between his more peaceful personality and IMP trait, he's best positioned to take advantage of it, inflating his score if nothing else. Historically his biggest problem has been getting cruddy cramped starts, and that isn't an issue here. He also should be reasonably successful at avoiding trouble, out of the way and with a moderate peace weight and low cultural pressure. Most of the time, Stalin and Napoleon should have bigger fish to fry (though watch out for Gandhi...). Now, his land doesn't look especially great and I don't know how likely he is to win (unless by simply holding steady while everybody else implodes - this might be a pretty good map for that). But I bet he is the favorite for second place and has the most top two finishes in the alternate histories. He was a good fantasy pickup here.

Joao's peaceweight, middling as it is, could also make him a critical player in shaping how the game goes. If he rolls low for this game, he might end Gandhi's chances early and serve as a fantastic partner for Stalin. If he rolls high, he might be just what it takes to take Stalin down instead. An interesting factor that we will only know in retrospect.

Thirdly, there's Ragnar, one of my fantasy leaders in this match. He's a attracted little support so far, but I think this could actually be a strong setup for him. His triple seafood start matches his starting Fishing tech and Financial trait; the latter will also come in handy for the nice surrounding land, with lots of rivers and a very close gold resource. Ragnar can expand to a strong size on his own and is unlikely to be dogpiled in this game (perhaps Stalin's lowest-odds target?), and overall I think the lack of early copper will work in his favor by letting him develop a bit more before going on the attack. There's a clear path to victory as well, snowballing over the smaller Victoria in the north and going from there. Now, I'm fully cognizant that we're talking about Ragnar here and there's every chance in the world that he'll screw it all up. However, I think this is one of the best shots he'll ever get, which is why I backed him in fantasy.

Phew, so much for the southern trio. What about the leaders in the north? Gandhi is currently the favorite among these, and I think deservedly so. (EDIT: Now it's Napoleon. I might have been wrong about this one to begin with.) He has a lot of factors working in his favor: a good capital with immediately-improvable gold, good backlines so he should be able to reach a decent size even if his expansion is bad, and minimal competition for all of the religious and cultural stuff. This is basically the opposite of last week's game in that regard, and so if he can get by without suffering serious aggression, it will likely be a trivial matter for him to run away with culture and win a fast victory that way. The problem, of course, is that Napoleon is right there. Even Joao isn't going to be all that reliable as an ally in all likelihood, and so it seems a tall order for Gandhi to be able to avoid serious aggression, or fend it off before his game gets rekt. We'll see, though - he's pulled it off before! I can also totally see an amazing conclusion to the game where he gets crippled by Napoleon early on, only to sneak out the surprise cultural victory in the eleventh hour. Would be quite an ending! I do think in retrospect that not putting any fantasy value on him at all was a mistake. We'll see if I (and the others) pay for it.

Gandhi at least has a clear victory condition, which is more than I can say for the other northern leaders. I guess Napoleon isn't far off, though, as he has the snowball route, but I don't think he's as well set up for it as Ragnar. His land is poorer in food and commerce, and he has less of it available, especially if Gandhi settles a Holy City in his direction. He does have two potentially soft initial targets in Gandhi and Roosevelt, but will it be that easy to roll through them? He has copper near his capital, but there's no guarantee that his settling and culture priorities will let him connect it in a timely manner. Even if he does roll through one opponent, I think he'll have a tough time keeping the snowball rolling without falling behind in tech. I could be wrong, but I think most of his best outcomes would come from playing tagalong kid to a strong Stalin.

Then there's Roosevelt. Some folks on the Discord have been praising his capital but I just don't see it. Yes, there's gold, but who's to say he'll be working it before Turn 40? And there's just not that much land available for him. I think he'll be too squeezed and too Roosevelt to accomplish much here.

Finally, Victoria has a capital that fits beautifully with her starting techs, why I was convinced to pick her up for fantasy... and not much else. Little land available, what there is is unimpressive, and her track record works against her. I have low expectations for her to accomplish much of anything except feeding a snowball.




After sticking to what I felt to be more conservative picks in the past few weeks (for all that backing Shaka, Saladin, and Darius got me), I'm going a bit more daring again this week and backing my fantasy choice. I have Ragnar to snowball over Victoria (the FTD) and keep going from there until he wins by Domination. Joao in second place. It would be hilarious if Ragnar was sniped by a Gandhi culture win though.
 
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So many plains-cow resources! I can only imagine the chaos that this game will contain as the leaders fight for them. However, Stalin not only starts with a plains-cow capital, but he also has two more plains-cow tiles nearby to his north and west. I mean, so long as he grabs those, how could all those hammers fail a man whose national symbol is literally half hammer? I have Plains-Joao as second place with Gandhi FTD since I suspect Napoleon will make better use of his war machine plains-cow capital before the peacenik Indian can set up an effective defense.
 
Regarding Gandhi I think his start is not as strong as it may seem. He does have a great capital with gold and starts with mining. OTOH the surroundings indicate a slow start: there is a lot of plains with few food resources (one dry corn, rice, wheat, one plainscow, a fish in the ocean and a crab, with the rice and crab being dangerously close to Nappy.), the jungle looks nice but will need iron working, he does have lots of forests around his capital and there is little early commerce in the surroundings. With his personality I believe it is probable he will delay both bronze and iron working. Also I believe there is a significant chance he will settle his second city in the jungle. He will definitely be vulnerable to Nappy, except .... the situation for Nappy being, IMHO, even worse, having no gold. If he goes straight for military techs he may completely crash his economy. He does need pottery.
Still if Gandhi survives until iron working he does have a good position to go culture. I think he will either die fast or come close to winning.

Stalin does look best.
 
I've put my money on Joao going to space. Ghandi may or may not survive the early game, depending on whether its him or Rosey that gets targeted by Nappy and Stalin. After the two whimps are incapacitated (Ghandi may very well survive if let live for long enough) there won't be enough land or tech parity to go around to catch up to Joao between three warmongers. And I have learned my lesson on the strong seafood starts (although Pacal did turn it around pretty well!) for Vicky and Ragnar. They ought to be too bogged down by this for too long to really take over the game.
 
If Brennus did not get dogpiled then I don't see why these guys should. Since there is no such thing as peaceweight in these games...

My first thought went for Stalin to win Ragnar second. But on second thought I might just swap this runner up to Napoleon. Honestly, when I look at the map I just can't decide which capitals are worse than other. I decided Victoria has the worst, but followed by no one really. Napoleon and Rosevelt seems equivalent. Ragnar and Gandhi looks like they will have barbarians, but more space at least. Joao's land looks noticeably worse than Stalin.

Now as for AIs, I would put Victoria better than those 5 other leaders, she has ironically the worst start.
Napoleon is probably better ai but hard to tell between them. He must got very unlucky in the series. Maybe he just became better with noble starting techs.
Joao is third to me,somewhat a warmonger too. No tech trading hurts him really. Otherwise he is a monster. But overall he is an ai with no game plan. Looks like peter but pw 6.
Then Gandhi comes, the worst leader with diplomacy. And unit building. He might lose a city or two in early game.It is really Napoleon's call.
Ragnar is with his berserker looks scary in medieval times. I believe he is one of the better warmongers. He will probably have a barbarian city between him and Stalin. And be more effective than greek war we saw last month vs england.
Roosevelt is one of the worse ais of the game but really he plays early game not so bad. I don't think he is a pushover. He loves Pyramids though. At least he is with other worse ais here. He needs a 2v1 war on someone evil and I can see him winning the game just like that.
And the worst ai of the map, Stalin who often plays early game slow, funny he is the seeded leader with best starting capital. He is just too lucky. Deep down I would enjoy him getting dogpiled and destroyed too but only if Roosevelt had plains cows instead of green(wet) cow?
 
Game 6 announcement posted to the main page.
 
@Keler , you really place no stock at all in Vicky's capital gold/fish/clam that perfectly fit her starting techs? She'll have the best early research if nothing else.
 
1st - Nappy
2nd - Joe-Ow
FTD - Gandho
Victory - DOM
Wars - 15
 
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Last game was just eye-opening: three mysticism starts but the two Egypts split six religions and either could have won a Cultural Victory by T300 :eek: As for this game, Gandhi can serve up a classic early win, but Joao, Roosevelt, and Victoria are also (albeit more plodding) culture threats if they consolidate a research lead :shifty:
 
If Brennus did not get dogpiled then I don't see why these guys should. Since there is no such thing as peaceweight in these games...

Here we have the opposite situation though, right? Last game it was all peaceful leaders and one warmonger, this time its a lot of warmongers against the peaceful leaders.

The only way to avoid a dogpile imo is if they all attack someone else. But they will certainly attack.

Last game you had AI that were positively predisposed to one another and the frowny faces came from earlier diplomacy, not from First Impression (mostly).
 
Here we have the opposite situation though, right? Last game it was all peaceful leaders and one warmonger, this time its a lot of warmongers against the peaceful leaders.
And it wasn't like the peaceniks in the last game never fought, they just didn't fight well. That's why I'm leaning towards Nappy in this game to roll the northern half of the continent, or at the very least for Domination as VC
 
1st - Stalin
2nd - Joao
FTD - Gandhi
Victory - Dom
Wars - 16
Turn - 350

Nappy will attack either Gandhi or Roos, probably killing his target. This will leave him struggling economically. Once Gandhi is knocked out this map is heading towards a Dom victory, with Stalin and Joao having best chances. I believe that Gandhi may actually win around 20% of the games.
 
1st - Stalin
2nd - Joao
FTD - Gandhi
Victory - Dom
Wars - 16
Turn - 350

Nappy will attack either Gandhi or Roos, probably killing his target. This will leave him struggling economically. Once Gandhi is knocked out this map is heading towards a Dom victory, with Stalin and Joao having best chances. I believe that Gandhi may actually win around 20% of the games.
Almost exactly my predictions.
 
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