Sullla's (*Spolier*) GOTM10: Lowest Scoring Challenge

[flexo]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
That would work in theory only, not reality. How do you determine if someone purposely milked the game, or just doesn't have the skills to finish early? You could try and implement rules to discourage milking, but there is always a work-around. The person who purposely held off on building wonders is an example.

True, not a perfect system or idea at all. I guess the only way is rules and guidelines. Sure you can't force people to build if they don't want to.

I'm not a super civ3 player, not in gotm or in anyother way. but I can manage. I finished my occ gotmX in 1956 or was it 1958. That is not early compared to some of the others. I did that cause I'm not as good as them and I made several stupid misstakes not to mention getting the short end of the stick in a few wonder production cascades.

Many of you are playing this OCC just for fun and not worrying too much about how low of a score you can get as the OCC is a whole new experience for you. But what about in a month or two, when you guys start becoming pros at this OCC thing? Then more and more of you will start finding more and better ways of holding off on getting victory until later in the game.

Well GOTM lasted for 9-10 games before it has started to dull over requireing something new to be tried for a couple of games. Then i might go back trying to conquere the world again (even thou I am really bad at it).

I guess it has to do with playstyle. I don't use any schemes or "tactics" when I play, I play normally and I play for fun. I don't try and "hold of" or milking for a few more points. Usually I find the games to be more fun in the beginning so in the end I just want to finish so I can start again. Not drag on the end forever (or the late 2040's).

Perhaps one will try and make a really highscoreing OCC game instead. Or change it to be a 5CC or whatever.

Just having alittle change from time to time would really spiff the game up a bit instead of doing the same thing over and over again.

 

[Mathias]

In CIV II, your score included something that is lacking in CIV III: each wonder you controlled added points to your score. What this really needs is some method of rewarding a player for building wonders. Not just some fixed number of points either, but give points based on when the wonder was built. For example, 1/10 of a point per year before 2050 for ancient wonders (400 points for building the Oracle in 1950 BC). Midieval wonders give 1/4 of a point per year (400 points for Sistine Chapel in 450 AD). For industrial wonders, you get 2/3 point per year (400 points for Theory of Evolution in 1450 AD). Finally, a full 2 points per year for any modern wonder you manage to build before your cultural victory (400 points for United Nations in 1850 AD). This would definitely make OCC even more interesting, and could possibly be implemented in all games.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Well I have to admit that the OCC game was more fun than I thought. It was like milking in the beginning because it was just so "wonderful" but the politics at the end was interesting. I hate giving into demands unless they are on the light side so I had a few wars, fortresses are a good thing in OCC. Finished in 1882AD with a cultural victory.

CB

PS. I didn't know we could use colonies, maybe next time.

 

[civ_steve]

It was very frustrating to participate in the GOTMs, because of how difficult it was for me to break away from other things in my life to actually try to complete a game within 30 days. Now Sulla has shown me a way to be able to (possibly) consistently finish a GOTM and submit it.

I wasn't going to attempt GOTM X, due to my schedule this month. But last Friday I loaded it up to try a OCC. Wow! After only 7 hours in the game I'm halfway through the Industrial period, keeping slightly ahead of the AI's. I'm going to try for Spaceship, but should be able to fall back on Cultural or Diplomatic.

In addition to being something different, the OCC is a way for fairly busy people to participate in the GOTMs. Perhaps OCC submittals could be astericked or highlighted in the GOTM results, if they become popular.

 

[Ozymandius]

Neat stuff... so much more rewarding than 1000 years of milking. With only one city and such small score differentials is it possible to play GoM and OCC? Knowing where goodie huts are located from previous play has minimum impact on score.. skill at trading seems much more important.... I have never been able to keep the other civs civil.

If a city flips to you, can you accept it and abandon it same turn to get benefit of free defender?

Again hats off to all those who have done well at this variation of Civ 3.

 

[Mathias]

I would say no, you cannot accept a culture flip, even if you abandon it immediately. Having that city for just one turn certainly has a minimal effect on the final score, but having that city not there for the rest of the game is a bit different. Your border will expand into the area where the city was, and that would affect your score to a greater extent.

And that 'free defender'? Well, to be quite frank, it is more likely a liability, as the AI might see that much stronger unit as a threat. If you do need a bigger defense, your best unit, be it Musketman or Mech Inf, is no more than two turns away. For me, if I'm not forced into an early war by Montezuma, my spearmen will hold down the fort right on into the modern times.

 

[Ozymandius]

If the city is larger, your score will be higher & the point is to get a low score. Abandoning the city the same turn should not affect your score very much.. area gained* years. The AI parks next to an incense colony and it evaporates. AI dumb enough to risk CF should pay the price.

I don't care about the result in score, I like lebensraum. Is there a rule about it??

 

[Mathias]

The goal for this particular game was to get a lower score. OCC in general does not imply any specific goal, except to win with one and only one city. Other OCC goals could be highest score (i.e. fastest finish) or space race victory.

As far as rules go, I don't think there is any specific outline of what is or isn't allowed in OCC. If we were to compile a list of rules for OCC, I would vote that accepting a culture flip be disallowed.

Regarding the effect accepting a flip and abandoning the city has on your score... If you 'rebuff the rebels' and let the opposing civ maintain control of the city, that civ will own the territory around that city. On the other hand, if you take the city and abandon it, your cultural border will extend into the now empty space, increasing your territory. More territory means higher score, so if you accept and abandon the city, your score will be higher than it would be if you do not accept the flip.

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Should be alright I guess, as long as you don't sell any improvements and disband the units.
In my game most neighbouring cities changed hands a couple of times so I ended up with a large grazing patch anyway.

I kept checking for encampments constantly (had many colonies which I wanted to protect) and never got any uprisings.

I didn't try for the lowest score btw, and achieved a cultural win in 1745 AD.

Congrats on an unbeilveably early win! Makes my full game attempt win an 1888 with 20000pts. nowhere close. An OCC actually should do better as you can start on the first wonder quicker, and don't suffer the built settler delay. Large city = faster wonder building. I wonder what game 11 will bring.

If I win something with the GOTM, it will be in the fastest category. I have zero desire to milk the game to death.

 

[thefrenchzulu]

OK, I finished my first full gotm10 attempt today and decided to give the OCC a go. I didn't try for lowest score and kept my city in WLCD from size 6. That with no luxuries. I did select a terrible spot for the city where I could have as little territory control as possible.

I only built:

temple
collosus
library
great libirary
hanging gardens
colloseum
univercity
Sistene chapel
js bach cathedral

then I set to wealth and pay per turn gold bribes to everyone.

I built nothing else apart from harbor, market place and a bank.

I traded for no luxaries and had none.

I won in 1985 with 358 points. I could have delayed till later to cut the 150 points early bonus, but I have just finished a milked Gotm and didn't feel like it.

All the other guys were figting. The Romans and Aztechs were dead, with the Russians to follow. (had three cities left) The American, Iroquios and Germans had about equal territory, but no UN vote took place.

 

[Ozymandius]

Some people are so good at this they can predict early what they need to win. Some use programs to determine domination, others to calculate years to end. If you want to be a purist forget the score and make it a race pure and simple... whoever gets to the finish line first wins. Ranking would simply be the years difference from the first place finisher.
For people who play GOM for high score then OCC already know where to go for goodies & stuff. Anti-milkers will find sites that do not have luxuries to keep their citizens miserable and growth slow.... I kept Paris small by not building hospital... is that milking? Too many variables ... too many rules that could be broken.
If you want to compete on strategy,
Rule 1. Build on starting site in 4000. BC
Rule 2. No alteration of the Civ 3 game.
Rule 3. Finish First.
Rule 4. Have fun

My 3 (CDN) cents. = 2 US on a good day

 

[Ozymandius]

For defensive reasons, my settler crawled up the hill overlooking the Seine. After 50 years of surveying the site, Paris was founded in 3950. From this height we spotted two small encampments nearby. Our workers began clearing the forest to prepare lumber for our barracks. 250 years later our workers' descendents figured out it would make more sense to use a road to move our timber to Paris. My advisors were not allowed to waste gold on ridiculous notions of turning rocks into "wheels". Hard labour prevents them from getting too fat. The road completed, they began to mine the area. Can't ever get too rich. From 3500 to 3450, news of our city finally spread and the Bulgars pulled up stakes and moved to Paris. The Vandals, after showing us the proper way to bury our dead, left for new grazing land. Being down-river from a growing city does have its drawbacks.
Had to bribe the Bulgars with a third of my income for entertainment before they agreed to settle down. In 3200 a temple was completed on the foundation of my abandoned barracks to keep them out of the taverns on one day a week anyways.
In 3100 our first recruit set out to explore. His grandchildren approached a group of celts in 2710 and convinced a warrior of dubious skills to help him search.... and so on. TBC

 

[Lawrence]

My OCC game is a thrilling experience. I've got a Space Race victory. And without satobaging AI space ships!
Although it was because I didn't build the Intelligence Agency. I had so much fear about that, if I plant a spy and am caught, I would promptly be extinguished.

In the modern age it is very hard to play. Techs come slow because the Colossus bonus has disappeared. I researched Computers for 27 turns and Nuclear Power for another 26. Other techs are bought from the AI.

I use:
Computers to exchange Fission, Rocketry and Space Flight
Nuclear Power to exchange Superconductor, Synthetic Fibers

other techs are bought at the 5th civ price. It was surprisingly low. Only costed me about 15000 gold pieces for Ecology, Satellites and The Laser.

However, knowing the AI could complete the ship ANY time but can't know WHEN they can is a big thrilling experience. In my last few turns when they have got the Laser earlier than me, yet keeping it too expensive to buy, I was always waiting for the screen " You have suffered a humiliating loss." Fortunately, no such appeared.

The remaining OCC challenges would be Conquest and Diplomacy. Both is ridiculously hard to play. For diplomacy you had to keep two civs alive and smaller than you before guaranteeing one of the votes . Conquest? Maybe, huh, ICBMs would do the job?

 

[Phillip_martin]

Well done Lawrence on a Space Race OCC GOTM victory.

Originally posted by Lawrence
The remaining OCC challenges would be Conquest and Diplomacy. Both is ridiculously hard to play. For diplomacy you had to keep two civs alive and smaller than you before guaranteeing one of the votes . Conquest? Maybe, huh, ICBMs would do the job?

For a Diplomatic you could always get the UN first and as an active trader and not a warmonger, secure the vote with a spotless reputation : Secretary-General Joan

Conquest would require a smaller map on a lower level. Not that it would be impossible (never say never) but without a good tech lead and the time to use it against a larger enemy.

This has got me thinking. If you had 50 Cav/Tanks against an AI which is constantly at war with each other (see Cracker's GOTM Spolier write-up) and hence behind in defensive units then roll them out. Problem is that you would have to keep going to prevent another Civ filling the gaps.

When is the next Small Cheiftain GOTM

 

[Lawrence]

Yes, I was wrong about the UN thing. I thought that "The largest or second largest country in the world" is one of the prerequisites of being the leader of the UN.

It is very hard to finish up ALL AIs in limited time. My best experience was using up my whole army of Modern Armors to kill America in 1 turn( by Right of Passage Abuse ), I think it would cost 50 Modern Armors while many of the defenders are infantry/riflemen. In OCC maps you can not take a big tech lead, my lead is one tech in all ages except modern. In modern, because of Colossus depletion and ridiculously high research cost, no lead is possible( at least to me ). And outnumber the AI while you have only one city? Doubtful. So what I thought is that you can build a lot of ICBMs and get them all out at one time. After , your land troops can conquer.

 

[thefrenchzulu]

I think the idea of a OCC conquest challenge is good. I just tried it on the GOTM10 map. Though the large maps really makes it tough hitting both sides of the map simultaneously, difficult, I got tired after killing both the Aztechs and Russians for the third time! Respawning must be turned off for this to be fun.

Would it be allowed to use a captured city to create an army before abondoning it? In effect that would be the same as excepting a culture flip before abandoning it.

Hats off to Lawrence with a OCC space victory. That must have really been a tough game!

I replayed the OCC GOTM, this time on a better location. I found that while the AI is staying peaceful, it was very diificult to stay ahead in science. That with both the science wonders. Do you buy all the science? I end up losing to a UN vote. There was only one war in the game with everybody turning against Germany. I only lasted 200 years before Germany was wiped off the fave of the earth.

 

[Phillip_martin]

The OCC is still a new concept to the CIV3 GOTM so the "rules" as such are not dedfined.

If this as to become a regular feature of the GOTM rather than the informal challenge this month then I would suggest a poll to determine what exploites/rule should be allowed.

I have not been involved with the CIV2 forums so do not know what their OCC award is based on.

IMO a CIV3 OCC should be based on the existing GOTM rules with a choice of the following additional rule options:
1 "Pure OCC" - All city flips must be rejected and captured cities razed.
2. "Benefitial Razing" - Flips and captured cities are accepted for the duration of your turn to enable the selling of structures and other benefits of having the city prior to abandoning it.
3. "Cultural OCC" - Allow the growth of your OCC empire by culture flipping
4. "Conquest OCC" - Allow the growth of your empire by conquest.
5. "Who needs Settlers OCC" - Flipped and captured cities are allowed but not a settler is to be built.

Once a definative set of rules are outlined then the victory conditiuons can be determine (eg. Fastest OCC Victory, Fastest Conquest, Highest OCC Score, Lowest OCC Score, etc.)

Are enough players are interested in an alternative GOTM challenge to kick this off?

 

[Lawrence]

I researched most of the techs. The path I used is as follows:

Bronze working->40 turn Mathematics->40 turn Currency->Use Great Library->Astronomy->Chemistry->Physics->Theory of Gravity->Magnetism->Medicine->Sanitation->Steam Power->Electricity->Scientific Method->The Corporation->Radio->Steel->Combustion->Mass Production->Motorized Transporation->Computers->Nuclear Power.

Constant income rate is 0%tax-90%science-10%luxury.

I sell every tech I researched to the AI for per turn deals. After Middle Age you can get a lot of them to offset the research costs.

 

[Ozymandius]

I didn't research till after my G Library became obsolete. Got to Theory of Evolution first and am makig lots of gold selling $ trading.... oops this is my third attempt and went for a coastal location away from the river.. Colossus is very important... How can you tell if the coast is there if you can'r reload? To keep people honest I think city should be built in 4000 BC.

Had a strange occurence last game. Made a deal to pay 15 gold per turn for democracy. Had 0 gold left. In anarchy had no income but warning that my treasury was low. That other civ must have been mad not getting his gold and none of my improvements were sold off.

 

[Serg]

How do you think to supply an army for the conquest with only one city? It's very expensive.