"Support The Troops"

This thread has made me more hesitant to consider hiring veterans, given the entitlement mentality being displayed.

I wasn't aware that asking that the benefits that were contractually guaranteed to us for our service was considered an entitlement mentality.

And even if we do have a bit of an entitlement mentality, is it really any worse than what some very vocal groups of civilians are asking for these days? I see and hear a lot of people asking, sometimes even demanding, benefits from the government and their employers that they haven't done a thing to earn.
 
I wasn't aware that asking that the benefits that were contractually guaranteed to us for our service was considered an entitlement mentality.

And even if we do have a bit of an entitlement mentality, is it really any worse than what some very vocal groups of civilians are asking for these days? I see and hear a lot of people asking, sometimes even demanding, benefits from the government and their employers that they haven't done a thing to earn.

I have already stated that I agree that you should get what is promised. The entitlement mentality I am referencing are a couple of the more extreme proposals in the OP plus veteran-only hiring and promotion schemes that some claim they will enact if given the opportunity.
 
I have already stated that I agree that you should get what is promised. The entitlement mentality I am referencing are a couple of the more extreme proposals in the OP plus veteran-only hiring and promotion schemes that some claim they will enact if given the opportunity.

But again I ask: Is any of that really any worse than the entitlement mentality the general population has been displaying for the past decade or so?

And for the veteran-only hiring, well I just consider that helping realize one of President Obama's stated goals: 0% unemployment among veterans. Plus, is a business not free to choose who it hires as long as that decision is not based on one of the federally recognized protected categories?
 
Veteran status is a category, so discriminating against those without such status is arguably unlawful discrimination based on wrongfully taking such status (or lack thereof) into consideration.
 
Veteran status is a category, so discriminating against those without such status is arguably unlawful discrimination based on wrongfully taking such status (or lack thereof) into consideration.

You could make that case, but the law has never and probably never will be applied in that way. The veteran status has almost universally been understood to mean you can't discriminate on someone because they are a veteran. That is because veteran status was added as a protected category following the Vietnam War when a lot of employers were discriminating against Vietnam veterans because of the unpopularity of that war.

Also, slamming a business for favoring veterans over non-veterans would be a tough sell with the American public. You would just come off as anti-military and anti-veteran, both of which would keep you from gaining any significant support for such an argument.
 
Racial anti-discrimination laws were designed to stop discrimination against non-whites, but you can not lawfully discriminate against whites. Gender anti-discrimination laws were designed to stop discrimination against women, but you cannot lawfully discriminate against men. I do not see why Veteran status anti-discrimination laws should work any differently.

And given the anti-troop sentiment oozing from the right with the release of Sgt. Bergdahl, I'm not so sure the country is as pro-military as you suspect.
 
Racial anti-discrimination laws were designed to stop discrimination against non-whites, but you can not lawfully discriminate against whites. Gender anti-discrimination laws were designed to stop discrimination against women, but you cannot lawfully discriminate against men. I do not see why Veteran status anti-discrimination laws should work any differently.

This would be the best way to argue the case, but I still doubt the chances of success. I see the counter-argument being that there is a significant difference in the wording of the law that prohibits discrimination based on race and the one that prohibits discrimination based on veteran status. The language of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 establishes that an employer cannot discriminate based on race, no matter what that race may be. However in the Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 and the later Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act, which established veteran status as a protected category specifically states that it is meant to protect veterans' employment rights. There is nothing in either of those laws guaranteeing that non-veterans cannot be discriminated against.
 
Those acts are pretty narrow in scope and application. In the private sector, the is no protected status and in fact, Veteran preferences (such as hiring or promoting only Veterans) can be found unlawful discrimination based on adverse impact to female employees or applicants.

http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/veterans_preference.html

True, but I think in the future it will become harder and harder to make that argument as more women join the military. It stands to reason that if more women are joining the military (which they are) then the supposed adverse impact on women that veteran's preference once created will no longer be an issue.
 
If I were made Lord Over All Things VA, I'd want to tread carefully to improve the options for veterans while not doing too much to encourage people to join the military, and thus not increasing militarism as society. "Support the troops" has always been a difficult issue for me. On the one hand, many of the troops deserve support (although there are exceptions), and it made a lot of sense as a rallying point in WWII and shortly thereafter. On the other hand, nowadays it is used to rally support for wars that I don't support (Iraq in particular, but Vietnam would also qualify). It's for that reason that I don't publicly "support the troops" - it can very well be read as "support the wars the troops are in". I'm not sure there's a good way to support the troops, but not support the wars they are in.

So that's why I'd support taking actions to ensure there isn't discrimination against veterans, as well as to make sure that veterans receive all the medical help they need due to service, as well as any psychological help they need (and that I'd probably extend indefinitely for veterans). But in terms of actually giving veterans an advantage over everyone else, I'd be more hesitant. I wouldn't want to create a society where great numbers of people joined the military, and consequently all of society became more militaristic, because those in the military received major advantages in life.

Expanding the GI Bill to include grad school sounds like a reasonable idea. Expanding it to include children seems a bit too far, though - it's primarily to help the veteran themself, and while funding the children would help the veteran financially, hopefully the education they received themselves allows them to cover that expense. Spouses could also present issues, such as encouraging marrying early to qualify, and having people looking to marry veterans/soldiers for the education more than due to actual love. So I can support part of that change, but not the whole thing.

I can't support the apply-for-job-automatically-get-interview proposal, though. The reason is that would be a colossal waste of time when veterans applied for positions they weren't a good match for. I think most people have probably at one point applied for a job that they later realized they weren't at all qualified for, and it's not a bad thing to not get an interview in those cases. I'd be receptive to more ways to make sure veterans aren't being discriminated against, but I couldn't support apply-for-job-auto-get-interview for any group.

Guaranteed home and small loan approval also sounds like a bad idea for any group. While being an honorably discharged veteran does indicate some ability to deliver on commitments, it doesn't indicate fiscal responsibility. Being too lenient with home loans was no small part of the 2008 financial crisis, and similarly. And being forced to approve small business loans when there is no business case also would be a disaster waiting to happen.

I probably did miss some ideas worth discussing in pages 2 - 6, but that's my take on what I've seen from pages 1 and 7 as an anti-military American.
 
It makes sense to say stuff like 'support the troops' if/when your troops are actually fighting to protect you and the country. This tends to not be the case when they are a couple of oceans away from your nearest coast. That looks more like an expedition, and at best would be realistically a first pre-emptive military action. But this is not what historically created positive sentiment for the troops (let alone that the US army is mercenery anyway, not drafted as in most of the main conflicts in time).*

I would support the local troops if they had to fight a war to protect this country, and even respect them greatly for it. I would not be that positive if they were sent to peace-keep/defend in some sub-saharan region, supposedly so as to prevent terrorist attacks here, cause that would reek of disinformation and fearmongering. But the local army is drafted, so they would be the first to question such unreasonable orders anyway.

*Maybe a decent analogy would be the Athenian campaign against Persia, which was very popular up to the decisive victory at Eurymedon river, and then became less popular with the (ultimately failed) expedition to Egypt, and ended with similar evacuations.
 
Ok, it's never going to come up naturally in discussion: Is your avatar a picture of Slim? (I find myself nearly certain it is, so maybe it has come up.)

I've always remembered (vaguely) his claims about the usefulness of time to think. Even as a general he seemed to need to make an effort when setting some time aside. What was relatively easy for him I can see as being a smidge difficult further down the ladder. At least without plenty of support from above. At which point study time could easily become mandatory ... which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

It is indeed! He's the tail end of my series of Second World War officers in black and white - I had Hackett for a while before, and I think Montgomery, but I quite liked this picture.

I actually found my level of down-time decreasing as I rose in rank, for the simple reason that a private soldier has a structured working day with usually a lot of time off - when there's no major training or exercise on, you can usually call it a day by mid-afternoon; there's only so much training that you can make people do before it becomes pointless, and you only then have admin to take care of which is a product of your own efficiency. Once you start being in charge of people, that doesn't really happen, because your day ends when the day's work does, and even then you'll have emerging issues to deal with that require your attention. I can see study time being instituted for people who are being groomed for commissions like the one I received, but not for ordinary soldiers - again, the chain of command works for its own benefit, and if it's not going to get a better soldier or officer out of the training, it won't put you on it. Especially not in the current climate, where they don't need to work hard to retain people.

If I were made Lord Over All Things VA, I'd want to tread carefully to improve the options for veterans while not doing too much to encourage people to join the military, and thus not increasing militarism as society. "Support the troops" has always been a difficult issue for me. On the one hand, many of the troops deserve support (although there are exceptions), and it made a lot of sense as a rallying point in WWII and shortly thereafter. On the other hand, nowadays it is used to rally support for wars that I don't support (Iraq in particular, but Vietnam would also qualify). It's for that reason that I don't publicly "support the troops" - it can very well be read as "support the wars the troops are in". I'm not sure there's a good way to support the troops, but not support the wars they are in.

The white poppy (which I seriously considered wearing last year) is precisely that, it's a symbol designed to say 'I want to show support for the military but not for militarism'. The jingoistic levels to which it gets taken in the US and over here by the far right worry me, and I didn't feel entirely comfortable wearing a symbol which had been largely hi-jacked by nationalists. I think the best way to do it is to help military charities as often and as quietly as possible - after all, those are simply giving money to help people who need it because of their service. I've always made a point of giving money to Help for Heroes and refusing a wristband, because showing off your support seems wrong to me.

I wouldn't want to create a society where great numbers of people joined the military, and consequently all of society became more militaristic, because those in the military received major advantages in life.

The obvious solution would be to make the military very selective, so lots of people want to join it and they only take the best - even today its recruitment is controlled to keep manpower largely stable.

Expanding the GI Bill to include grad school sounds like a reasonable idea. Expanding it to include children seems a bit too far, though - it's primarily to help the veteran themself, and while funding the children would help the veteran financially, hopefully the education they received themselves allows them to cover that expense. Spouses could also present issues, such as encouraging marrying early to qualify, and having people looking to marry veterans/soldiers for the education more than due to actual love. So I can support part of that change, but not the whole thing.[/quote]

The advantage of paying for schooling is that military parents can then afford to send their children to boarding school, so that they get a stable education rather than moving every few years as their parent is posted somewhere else. Military spouses have always been a mess, I think it's fair to say.
Guaranteed home and small loan approval also sounds like a bad idea for any group. While being an honorably discharged veteran does indicate some ability to deliver on commitments, it doesn't indicate fiscal responsibility.

Having been responsible for dealing with the ruined finances of actual soldiers, I'd say it should actually worry any lender!

It makes sense to say stuff like 'support the troops' if/when your troops are actually fighting to protect you and the country. This tends to not be the case when they are a couple of oceans away from your nearest coast. That looks more like an expedition, and at best would be realistically a first pre-emptive military action. But this is not what historically created positive sentiment for the troops (let alone that the US army is mercenery anyway, not drafted as in most of the main conflicts in time).*

'Support the troops' is different from 'support the war' - all that the former entails is believing that the people actually fighting the war (who probably signed up before it was even thought of) should be supported in line with the difficulties that they face as a result of service, and that the society which they represent has a duty not to abandon them when they cease to be fighting its wars. Remember that even the most unpopular war wouldn't be happening if there was enough weight of public opinion to make politicians seek a way out of it.
 
Racial anti-discrimination laws were designed to stop discrimination against non-whites, but you can not lawfully discriminate against whites. Gender anti-discrimination laws were designed to stop discrimination against women, but you cannot lawfully discriminate against men. I do not see why Veteran status anti-discrimination laws should work any differently.

And given the anti-troop sentiment oozing from the right with the release of Sgt. Bergdahl, I'm not so sure the country is as pro-military as you suspect.

Not only that, but a Vets ONLY policy, depending on how you handle your paperwork, could pretty easily be argued to be discriminatory against other protected classes, such as women, or certain age groups.
 
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