Synagogue Shooting in Pittsburgh

My comment about a Jewish state was in reply to the comment telling all Gentiles to shut up about the massacre. Maybe you should figure that sort of thing out before jumping in, next time?

Why? I, like most people hereabouts, don't give a good rip what you were talking about previously. You were diverting into your usual "Israel should be allowed to be a rogue state and do things that any other state would be sanctioned into oblivion for" track, and I drew the short straw of kicking you in the teeth for it before you got very far because we're all pretty tired of hearing it.
 
Not only doesn't it seem like it, it isn't. It's very clearly a suggestion to have Israeli-style armed guards at Jewish synagogues and schools, which is already being done in Europe.

"Very clearly", eh?

Do you think it was more broadly heard as a shout out to the Second Amendment, or more broadly heard as a shout out to situations in Israel?

And you are making a statement about the intent? Like, you think he meant to be speaking about the Israeli analog?

Don't mistake me for a member of "the left", and I'm certainly not their spokesman.

My disgust towards Trump is specific. It's not a partisan issue.
 
"Very clearly", eh?

Do you think it was more broadly heard as a shout out to the Second Amendment, or more broadly heard as a shout out to situations in Israel?

Why would you give him the satisfaction of pretending to ask this as a question? There is no doubt that D'ump's comment about 'security' was a shoutout to his base of "good guy with a gun is the only answer" 2nd amendment fanatics. Hogwash's effort to pretend otherwise merits nothing better than open scorn.
 
There are also countless pieces about how the shootings were Trump's fault:

With the understanding that there are many underlying causes contributing to an event ...

"Imma kill the people helping the migrants" being said while Fox and 45 are strongly focusing on the 'threat' of said migrants means that saying 'Trump helped cause this' is reasonable.

I mean, ingestion of lead fumes probably contributed as well ... but still. The reason why he talked about the migrants is going to be strongly linked to Fox and 45 harping on about it.
 
With the understanding that there are many underlying causes contributing to an event ...

"Imma kill the people helping the migrants" being said while Fox and 45 are strongly focusing on the 'threat' of said migrants means that saying 'Trump helped cause this' is reasonable.

I mean, ingestion of lead fumes probably contributed as well ... but still. The reason why he talked about the migrants is going to be strongly linked to Fox and 45 harping on about it.

I think you are glorifying a wall by attempting to reason with it, but I like your method.
 
I don't think anyone believes that Jewish Republicans are specifically responsible for Trump's election. Given the geographic distribution of American Jews, they're unlikely to be in a position to impact presidential elections one way or the other.

I didn't say 'specifically' responsible. You can still call someone complicit in electing someone, even if their vote wasn't the tiebreaker.

if we're reading what is actually written, rather than going out of way to read her words in deliberate bad faith- it's a call for introspection rather than an accusation of culpability.

:lmao:

Fundamentally, it's a plea for unity among American Jews, contextualised in an awareness that this unity is incompatible with support of a white nationalist demagogue, however many Jerusalem's worth of greater goods Jewish Republicans might believe they are gaining from this support.

So basically, she's trying to unify American Jewry around her own nutbag political beliefs. Now semantics are fun, but maybe your definition of unity is a little suspect if makes Martin Luther into a 'unifier' of the Christian world, since he only wanted all Christians to accept his theology.

If there's something controversial in this, it's not some obtuse accusation of culpability for the shooting, but rather the claim that the shooting challenges Jewish conservatives to decide whether their ultimate loyalties lie with Israel or Jewry, something which many of them had previously assumed to one and the same.

Sad how easily those Jews are taken in by a white nationalist. We must be a very foolish people.

Why? I, like most people hereabouts, don't give a good rip what you were talking about previously. You were diverting into your usual "Israel should be allowed to be a rogue state and do things that any other state would be sanctioned into oblivion for" track, and I drew the short straw of kicking you in the teeth for it before you got very far because we're all pretty tired of hearing it.

No, I was making fun of Traitorfish's belief that Gentiles don't have a right to comment by applying that to Israel. You decided I was seriously advocating that only Jews be allowed to comment on Israel, and posted your usual inane strawman.

"Very clearly", eh?

Do you think it was more broadly heard as a shout out to the Second Amendment, or more broadly heard as a shout out to situations in Israel?

And you are making a statement about the intent? Like, you think he meant to be speaking about the Israeli analog?

He's not speaking about Israel at all. He's speaking about the situation in Europe, where synagogues, Jewish schools, and kosher stores now have permanent police protection. This is a well known issue in the Jewish community and I think it's pretty clear he was directing those words to American Jews.

With the understanding that there are many underlying causes contributing to an event ...

"Imma kill the people helping the migrants" being said while Fox and 45 are strongly focusing on the 'threat' of said migrants means that saying 'Trump helped cause this' is reasonable.

I mean, ingestion of lead fumes probably contributed as well ... but still. The reason why he talked about the migrants is going to be strongly linked to Fox and 45 harping on about it.

Why aren't you laying some 'responsibility' for the shooting of Congressman Steve Scalise at Bernie Sanders' feet, then? The guy was literally a campaign volunteer for Sanders, whereas the Tree of Life shooter hated Trump because he is too pro-Jewish.
 
Why aren't you laying some 'responsibility' for the shooting of Congressman Steve Scalise at Bernie Sanders' feet, then? The guy was literally a campaign volunteer for Sanders, whereas the Tree of Life shooter hated Trump because he is too pro-Jewish.


First off, don't ignore my point. It's intellectually dishonest. Trump and fox are harping on, and on, about the dangers presented by the Caravan. And the guy shot people helping the Caravan, explicitly because they were helping the Caravan.

Maybe this guy was reading Nazi blogs independently of fox screaming about the invasion, but I'll say it's unlikely.

I'm not calling him a trump supporter. I am saying that trumps rhetoric was a causal factor.

Secondly, I think you have insight that Trump was referring to security measures Jews used in Europe, instead of shouting out to the Second Amendment. If he has people with a similar first instinct in his inner circle, that might have been on his mind. Instead of the more base level politics I assumed.
 
First off, don't ignore my point. It's intellectually dishonest. Trump and fox are harping on, and on, about the dangers presented by the Caravan. And the guy shot people helping the Caravan, explicitly because they were helping the Caravan.

Maybe this guy was reading Nazi blogs independently of fox screaming about the invasion, but I'll say it's unlikely.

I'm not calling him a trump supporter. I am saying that trumps rhetoric was a causal factor.

I don't see why politicians are responsible for every lunatic that latches on to them. The Scalise shooter was explicitly motivated by the rhetoric the Democrats have used lately, specifically the claim that Trump is a traitor and that Republicans are complicit by supporting him, and that democracy is under existential threat.
 
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I don't see why politicians are responsible for every lunatic that latches on to them. The Scalise shooter was explicitly motivated by the rhetoric the Democrats have used lately, specifically the claim that Trump is a traitor and that Republicans are complicit by supporting him, and that democracy is under existential threat.

They're not 'responsible', but they're an underlying cause. There are many factors. There's going to be a qualitative difference between different types of rhetoric. If we ascribe blame to 'religion' for anti-Semitism, it would be effing dumb to blame the rhetoric in the Bible as equally as the Qur'an, despite the fact that both publications were able to inspire anti-Semites.

What you're counter-proposing (it seems) is that Fox & 45's rhetoric isn't a factor, is (frankly) wrong-headed. Keep in mind that I am not denying that rhetoric was a factor in Scalise's shooting. I am suggesting that failing to notice the influence of Trump's rhetoric is incorrect. The shooter shot Jews because he's an anti-semite. But he shot caravan-helping Jews because of the Nationalist rhetoric. There are literally segments of society that views asylum seekers as 'invaders' rather than a 'complex problem' or 'victims'. If he'd shot Jews for 'controlling the banks', we'd be ascribing different people responsibilities for their lies.

The Republican party is currently in a weird coalition. There's a reason why the KKK endorsed Trump before the mainstream Evangelicals came to his side. But there's also a reason why the Evangelicals eventually came over to him.
 
Let's also discuss the quality of the person inspired by the rhetoric. There's a statistical certainly that there exists lunatics. I'd happily insist "on both sides". And there will also be a population that are not lunatics but who act immorally for bad reasons. We're not surprised that the (failed) pipe bomber exists. There will always be the cross-section of people that are dumb enough to fall for the current level of rhetoric. And there will always be the second group of lunatics, who seem to seek out bad rhetoric.

The democrat rhetoric inspired Hodgkinson, who by most measures will tick boxes for 'being desperate' (similar to Sayoc): impoverished, lengthy criminal record, etc. The rhetoric (in both these cases) inspired the maladjusted; we aren't surprised, but we know there's a problem. There's a Bell Curve of people willing to commit poorly informed political violence, and what we worry about is whether that population is growing or not. There will always be people who like the idea of swinging fists with Antifa, and what we're more watching is (a) whether their concerns are valid and (b) what type of person is swayed by their concerns into action. We then provide some type of scale to judge if things are actually getting bad or if the rhetoric is getting bad, or both.

Compare that to the synogogue shooter, who was also inspired to act by what he was reading and hearing. He's clearly a substandard human, by most metrics. But he was not in the same category as Sayoc. Employed. No criminal record. Licensed carry holder. Etc. We know he's a KKK supporter. We know he hated the Jews. But this is a man who'd not been inspired to stupid political violence (or, at least, he'd not been caught) until the Fox & 45 rhetoric.
 
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@El_Machinae
You seem to be reaching this conclusion about substandard human following a path that is contradictory to the warning in your premise. You appear satisfied with the synagogue shooter being 'substandard, but less substandard than Sayoc or Hodgkinson,' which is reasonable. But as the rhetoric rachets up the people it motivates become less substandard does lead eventually to the rhetoric racheting up far enough that even the standard humans may take some unsavory actions. At some point you are going to have to look at a shooter and ponder whether they are so much 'less substandard' that they represent a real prospect of ordinary people accepting violence as the best option.
 
Absolutely. I tried to capture that with this sentence fragment

"what we're more watching is (a) whether their concerns are valid and (b) what type of person is swayed by their concerns into action. We then provide some type of scale to judge if things are actually getting bad or if the rhetoric is getting bad, or both."

There will always be people on the Bell Curve that will be swayed to violence. And what increases the number of people under the curve will be a combination of the intensity of the rhetoric and the perceived concern. The more 'normal' the person is that is willing to swing fists, the more you need to be wondering whether the rhetoric has gotten worse or more justified. The Fox & 45 rhetoric has gotten 'worse', and you can measure just by the intensity and the odiousness of the lies. Fox Business News is having guests that talk about smallpox (hosted by 'Fake Bombs' Lou Dobbs, no less). The President is suggesting that 'middle-easterners' are part of the caravans. We're not talking about people who're understandably misinformed. That FBN pundits and the President are forwarding such falsehoods is evidence that the rhetoric is off-the-rails. You don't even know if they're saying it because they're stupid or if they think it will just be something the base wants...
 
The President and the entire Republican Party are saying the same things about the migrant caravan as the shooter said was his motive for shooting up the synagogue.
 
Trump got these people killed with his mouth and then blamed the media as if 'fake news' motivated this thug

Surely the idea that D'ump would take any kind of responsibility never really crossed your mind, did it?
 
Trump got these people killed with his mouth and then blamed the media as if 'fake news' motivated this thug

I mean I don't think it's quite that simple but the Republicans are very clearly veering into explicitly Nazi territory.
 
I mean I don't think it's quite that simple but the Republicans are very clearly veering into explicitly Nazi territory.

I dunno man...it kinda does seem that simple. Breitbarf was running wall to wall "Soros funding invasion, war being declared" stories. This guy found the nearest Soros surrogates and opened fire, after regurgitating those stories and declaring them motive. I mean, it might have been clearer if he'd worn a red tie and a bad toupee, but I think it's clear enough as is.
 
I dunno man...it kinda does seem that simple. Breitbarf was running wall to wall "Soros funding invasion, war being declared" stories. This guy found the nearest Soros surrogates and opened fire, after regurgitating those stories and declaring them motive. I mean, it might have been clearer if he'd worn a red tie and a bad toupee, but I think it's clear enough as is.

At the very least even in this account Trump had plenty of help. It's also worth pointing out that the shooter evidently hated Trump for being a "globalist" and too friendly with the Jews.
 
At the very least even in this account Trump had plenty of help. It's also worth pointing out that the shooter evidently hated Trump for being a "globalist" and too friendly with the Jews.

You think that Breitbarf was running that wall to wall just because? That was the D'ump propaganda arm blasting the D'ump campaign message, period.
 
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