Syriza Wins Greek Election

What kind of support can Russia give Greece in its current economic situation?
 
Is that a serious answer? I'm not sure.
 
It isn't. But it is a distinct possibility.

Right after an undisclosed country to the north of Greece taking their place in the Eurozone when they're kicked out of it.
 
An interesting "open letter" by PM Tsipras, explaining the situation to foreigners (it seems this one targeted at Germans) :

Syriza leader's open letter to other EU nationals said:
Most of you, dear readers, will have formed a preconception of what this article is about before you actually read it. I am imploring you not to succumb to such preconceptions. Prejudice was never a good guide, especially during periods when an economic crisis reinforces stereotypes and breeds biggotry, nationalism, even violence.


In 2010, the Greek state ceased to be able to service its debt. Unfortunately, European officials decided to pretend that this problem could be overcome by means of the largest loan in history on condition of fiscal austerity that would, with mathematical precision, shrink the national income from which both new and old loans must be paid.An insolvency problem was thus dealt with as if it were a case of illiquidity.

In other words, Europe adopted the tactics of the least reputable bankers who refuse to acknowledge bad loans, preferring to grant new ones to the insolvent entity so as to pretend that the original loan is performing while extending the bankruptcy into the future. Nothing more than common sense was required to see that the application of the 'extend and pretend' tactic would lead my country to a tragic state. That instead of Greece's stabilization, Europe was creating the circumstances for a self-reinforcing crisis that undermines the foundations of Europe itself.

My party, and I personally, disagreed fiercely with the May 2010 loan agreement not because you, the citizens of Germany, did not give us enough money but because you gave us much, much more than you should have and our government accepted far, far more than it had a right to. Money that would, in any case, neither help the people of Greece (as it was being thrown into the black hole of an unsustainable debt) nor prevent the ballooning of Greek government debt, at great expense to the Greek and German taxpayer.

Indeed, even before a full year had gone by, from 2011 onwards, our predictions were confirmed. The combination of gigantic new loans and stringent government spending cuts that depressed incomes not only failed to rein the debt in but, also, punished the weakest of citizens turning people who had hitherto been living a measured, modest life into paupers and beggars, denying them above all else their dignity. The collapse of incomes pushed thousands of firms into bankruptcy boosting the oligopolistic power of surviving large firms.

Thus, prices have been falling but more slowly than wages and salaries, pushing down overall demand for goods and services and crushing nominal incomes while debts continue their inexorable rise. In this setting, the deficit of hope accelerated uncontrollably and, before we knew it, the 'serpent's egg' hatched – the result being neo-Nazis patrolling our neighbourhoods, spreading their message of hatred.

Despite the evident failure of the 'extend and pretend' logic, it is still being implemented to this day. The second Greek 'bailout', enacted in the Spring of 2012, added another huge loan on the weakened shoulders of the Greek taxpayers, "haircut" our social security funds, and financed a ruthless new cleptocracy.

Respected commentators have been referring of recent to Greece's stabilization, even of signs of growth. Alas, 'Greek-covery' is but a mirage which we must put to rest as soon as possible. The recent modest rise of real GDP, to the tune of 0.7%, signals not the end of recession (as has been proclaimed) but, rather, its continuation. Think about it: The same official sources report, for the same quarter, an inflation rate of -1.80%, i.e. deflation. Which means that the 0.7% rise in real GDP was due to a negative growth rate of nominal GDP! In other words, all that happened is that prices declined faster than nominal national income. Not exactly a cause for proclaiming the end of six years of recession!

Allow me to submit to you that this sorry attempt to recruit a new version of 'Greek statistics', in order to declare the ongoing Greek crisis over, is an insult to all Europeans who, at long last, deserve the truth about Greece and about Europe. So, let me be frank: Greece's debt is currently unsustainable and will never be serviced, especially while Greece is being subjected to continuous fiscal waterboarding. The insistence in these dead-end policies, and in the denial of simple arithmetic, costs the German taxpayer dearly while, at once, condemning to a proud European nation to permanent indignity.

What is even worse: In this manner, before long the Germans turn against the Greeks, the Greeks against the Germans and, unsurprisingly, the European Ideal suffers catastrophic losses.
Germany, and in particular the hard-working German workers, have nothing to fear from a SYRIZA victory. The opposite holds.

Our task is not to confront our partners. It is not to secure larger loans or, equivalently, the right to higher deficits. Our target is, rather, the country's stabilization, balanced budgets and, of course, the end of the grand squeeze of the weaker Greek taxpayers in the context of a loan agreement that is simply unenforceable. We are committed to end 'extend and pretend' logic not against German citizens but with a view to the mutual advantages for all Europeans.

Dear readers, I understand that, behind your 'demand' that our government fulfills all of its 'contractual obligations' hides the fear that, if you let us Greeks some breathing space, we shall return to our bad, old ways. I acknowledge this anxiety.

However, let me say that it was not SYRIZA that incubated the cleptocracy which today pretends to strive for 'reforms', as long as these 'reforms' do not affect their ill-gotten privileges. We are ready and willing to introduce major reforms for which we are now seeking a mandate to implement from the Greek electorate, naturally in collaboration with our European partners.

Our task is to bring about a European New Deal within which our people can breathe, create and live in dignity.
Click to expand...

Again, i like his actions up to now :thumbsup:
 
At the end he is still asking for more euro money without the need to pay for the old Euro money. It's not surprising creditor nations aren't that happy.
 
luiz said:
At the end he is still asking for more euro money without the need to pay for the old Euro money. It's not surprising creditor nations aren't that happy.
Click to expand...

Exactly. All I hear from his open letter is "blah, blah, blah, give us more money; blah, blah, blah, forgive our past debt."
 
aelf said:
Every US government seems to be headed by a pro-Israel and pro-Saudi Arabia party (oh, the irony in that). Americans don't seem to be up in arms about it.
Click to expand...

The Americans crying foul in this thread should address this.
 
Commodore said:
We haven't addressed it because it isn't relevant to the topic in any way.
Click to expand...

Aelf likely means that whereas Tsipras is less openly supportive of Putin himself, Merican/British etc politicians are allied in key manner to regimes far more oppressive, so it is a bit hypocritical to use the former so as to be dismissive. ;)
 
Kyriakos said:
Aelf likely means that whereas Tsipras is less openly supportive of Putin himself, Merican/British etc politicians are allied in key manner to regimes far more oppressive, so it is a bit hypocritical to use the former so as to be dismissive. ;)
Click to expand...

It's not hypocritical at all, at least from my perspective on the matter. For me, it is not about how oppressive a regime is towards its own people, but rather how that regime acts towards the interests of my own nation. While I criticize both the Saudis and the Israelis for how they treat their people, I will not label them enemies because they are currently acting in alignment with US interests. So I have no problem with my government supporting those regimes. Russia however, is currently acting against the interests of my nation, so I want my government to take action that weakens them to the point they can no longer interfere with our interests.

Greece, on the other hand, is a member of the EU. As such they are expected to act in a manner that is in alignment with EU interests as any other member is expected to do. Getting buddy-buddy with Russia is not in alignment with EU interests. So Greece, in my opinion, needs to make a choice: either get back in line with EU interests and remain a member, or leave the EU and pursue better relations with Russia. Right now though, the Syriza government is attempting to actively sabotage EU action against Russia for whatever reason (my guess is it is part of the "your so unfair to us!" teenage-like tantrum the Greek government has been throwing since 2010.
 
So, is Greece going to default or not?

After reading Michael Lewis's "Boomerang", there is simply no way Greece's predicament can be described as anything but their own fault. To list just one example, Greece's public-school system was (and most likely still is) one of the lowest-ranked in Europe, yet it employed four times as many teachers as Finland's, the highest-ranked. Very well-paid teachers too, no doubt.

To be honest, it's a little grating when a country that is essentially bankrupt and dependent on others still has the nerve to make demands and criticize others, all while playing the victim card.

Oh, and when a country is rightly condemned by some Western countries for inefficiency and wastefulness, then I guess it's perfectly natural for it to seek solace with its critics' enemy, in this case pariah state Russia. It's not like Russia will actually be able to help Greece in any meaningful way though, so this alignment with Russia is pretty hilarious. :lol:

But don't worry Greece, you might get Russian help in a few years when CSAT forces invade Lemnos Altis. They might bring some Iranians and Turks with them though. :satan:
 
After publicly thowing out the Troika yesterday I am both shocked and awed, frankly. Its a novel way of dealing with the EU: shutting the doors firmly on any possibility of a face-saving compromise even before negotiations start in earnes. This can only have two outcomes now: Greece defaults or the EU accepts Greek demands without Germany and others having a way to somehow claim they didn't. I am no longer convinced that a default will be avoidable.
 
LoneRebel said:
To be honest, it's a little grating when a country that is essentially bankrupt and dependent on others still has the nerve to make demands and criticize others, all while playing the victim card.

Oh, and when a country is rightly condemned by some Western countries for inefficiency and wastefulness, then I guess it's perfectly natural for it to seek solace with its critics' enemy, in this case pariah state Russia. It's not like Russia will actually be able to help Greece in any meaningful way though, so this alignment with Russia is pretty hilarious.
Click to expand...

Don't forget they also try to deflect criticism by yelling "b-b-b-but you support that government and they are way worse then who we are supporting!"

I swear, it is getting rather tiresome that the Greek government and people seem like they are not accepting any responsibility at all for their current predicament. No, to hear them tell it, it is all the evil, predatory, greedy EU banksters and their vicious German overlords that forced Greece into poverty.
 
Please do not make generalizations. There are also sane Greeks. I myself believe that the best solution is to continue with the current deals we have made and make reforms (privatizations, more flexible public sector, less bureaucracy). This program worked. Greece had the largest rate of growth in Eurozone, at 1.4%.

Not every Greek supports SYRIZA. So do not say the cliche "all Greeks are lazy" or "all Greeks want to avoid every responsibility", for it is as wrong as the Greek cliche that "all Germans are bad".
 
ori said:
After publicly thowing out the Troika yesterday I am both shocked and awed, frankly. Its a novel way of dealing with the EU: shutting the doors firmly on any possibility of a face-saving compromise even before negotiations start in earnes. This can only have two outcomes now: Greece defaults or the EU accepts Greek demands without Germany and others having a way to somehow claim they didn't. I am no longer convinced that a default will be avoidable.
Click to expand...

Actually i am hopeful. The people in the key roles are all PHDs and even sound logical and intelligent, eg in this BBC interview just hours ago, with the minister of Economics:


Link to video.

While i did vote for Syriza largely due to wishing something not corrupt would replace the previous goons, i have to say that by now i am sort of amazed that a party which never before ruled managed to have as important people in it. The minister for Education is an even more impressive case, a person with a number of post-doctorates on philosophy of science among other things. Very good work. I am not politically left (or right or other such crap) but indeed now i am far more hopeful that we do have a serious government.
They don't seem to be crooks, nor crazy leftists either. In fact they seem very good up to now. And as the minister explains in that great interview: he wants co-operation with European govs for the good both of our own country but also to salvage the euro project (which listening to him and others in his gov i as well am starting to be a bit hopeful about too)...

+10 to Varouphakis just for the vid ;)
 
Also, Ori: the minister did not "shut out the EU". In his video of the speech (the interview was largely on that) he specifically said that the gov respects both the eu and the individual countries, but not the non-democratic and 'anti-european in nature' formation of a troika by people who are neither elected nor are inherently in positions looking out for either local or pan-european interest.
I agree with him. Besides, Varouphakis will be in Paris for meeting the French government, and later on to other euro states for the analogous. ;)
 
"How much worse could it possibly get?" was not meant to be a challenge, Greek voters.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Gori the Grey
  • Locked
2024 US Presidential Election Watch Party
34 35 36
Replies
705
Views
23K
Birdjaguar
Birdjaguar
Zardnaar
The Death of the Left/FPtP
Replies
1
Views
523
Zardnaar
Zardnaar
Zardnaar
NZ Election
Replies
3
Views
1K
Zardnaar
Zardnaar
sendos
2022 Australian Election - Almost the lowest Common Denominator
Replies
11
Views
1K
E.man
E.man
Z
Civlike game idea randomly ejected into cyberspace
Replies
10
Views
506
zuzim
Z
Back
Top Bottom