Syriza Wins Greek Election
- Thread starter Tee Kay
- Start date
It's not like Russia will actually be able to help Greece in any meaningful way though, so this alignment with Russia is pretty hilarious.
Russia has enough Euro reserves to give Greece a loan that could finance them for a while, if it wants to bribe Greece. That would avoid the default in March, but would make any long-term solution much harder.
Edit: Or much easier, if the goal of the Greek government is to be kicked out.
What if the goal is to reverse the horror of the 6 year austerity? Maybe assuming the servile/begging position will help this time? There is a saying about history somewhat tied to that too
What i regret more is how at least some normal europeans (ie not their politicians here and there) seemed very keen to attribute all this to "lazy Greeks/other southerners, they must be taught a lesson" or whatever. Kindergarten bullies never last long, and in the future are that ex-convict cleaning cars in some desert highway stop
What if the goal is to reverse the horror of the 6 year austerity? Maybe assuming the servile/begging position will help this time? There is a saying about history somewhat tied to that too
What i regret more is how at least some normal europeans (ie not their politicians here and there) seemed very keen to attribute all this to "lazy Greeks/other southerners, they must be taught a lesson" or whatever. Kindergarten bullies never last long, and in the future are that ex-convict cleaning cars in some desert highway stop
Greece simply doesn't have the money for that. And if they want money from the rest of Europe, they have to somehow show they're not going to waste it again.
In the end, the problem is not Greece. Europe could afford to give the Greeks handouts. The problem is that would encourage Spain and Italy to demand the same, and Europe can not afford to finance them as well.
Not sure if you noticed, but all those countries under austerity are in pretty miserable position and all have lost dramatically from it. If you can name any which gained, well, your argument might sound less hollow. Maybe your argument, on the other hand, is not much more than a soundbyte (and obviously i don't mean you as an originator of that; it is well known to be a trope for years).
If you are living over your means, reducing your expenditures will obviously hurt in the short term, although it might help in the long term. In the end, it is all going to boil down to one question: who would finance all those expenditures if austerity is abandoned?
If nobody is going to finance it, the only remaining option to get away from austerity would be the breakup of the Euro.
Eh, what does "living over your means" mean, m8? Do you think we have less industry or population or natural resources or usable land or trained people/graduates or anything else than most of the rest of the countries in the Eurozone? You are repeating a sentence you seem to be echoing as a hollow vessel. If not, please back it up with something. (and pls, not the 'but you are lazy!!! trope again
).Eh, what does "living over your means" mean, m8? Do you think we have less industry or population or natural resources or usable land or trained people/graduates or anything else than most of the rest of the countries in the Eurozone? You are repeating a sentence you seem to be echoing as a hollow vessel. If not, please back it up with something. (and pls, not the 'but you are lazy!!! trope again
It means that Greece spent more money than it earned.
LoneRebel
Emperor
Eh, what does "living over your means" mean, m8? Do you think we have less industry or population or natural resources or usable land or trained people/graduates or anything else than most of the rest of the countries in the Eurozone? You are repeating a sentence you seem to be echoing as a hollow vessel. If not, please back it up with something. (and pls, not the 'but you are lazy!!! trope again
Oh? Then you enlighten us as to what the causes of Greece's problems are. And I don't mean the austerity, but before that, what was it that led to the austerity in the first place?
Oh, and that dislike for "kindergarten bullies" certainly helps to explain why one would be willing to support them in Russia.
Tahuti
Writing Deity
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 9,492
Russian support for Greece would probably mean that the EU can't do anything but appreciate it. Germany would revert into its normal Pro-Russian stance under the Schröder era as well. The EU would become looser, adopt a more neutral stance on the Donbass crisis and also a less servile stance towards the US, without completely abandoning it.
Oh? Then you enlighten us as to what the causes of Greece's problems are. And I don't mean the austerity, but before that, what was it that led to the austerity in the first place?
Oh, and that dislike for "kindergarten bullies" certainly helps to explain why one would be willing to support them in Russia.
Much the same as the problems in all other euro countries, including eurozone ones. Likely the crucial difference being a peripheral geographical position and the tied to that need to also maintain a large and expensive army (or could we just sit back and expect help from our allies in the north?
).By all means though, keep with the 'yuo is of lazy'.
Likely the crucial difference being a peripheral geographical position and the tied to that need to also maintain a large and expensive army (or could we just sit back and expect help from our allies in the north?
You could. If your army is the problem, downsize it and increase spending in other areas. Immediate problem solved.
If you do not want to do that, I ask you again: Who do you expect to finance your end of austerity>
Some personal visions:
* The EU currently lacks instruments to address an economic downturn. There are some programs for infrastructure, but infrastructure spending is too limited for an entire stimulus program (of this size). Raising benefits or lowering personal income taxes would be the other usual approach but it does not apply to the EU. The ECB can take measures, however these are all at the ECB - Big Bank interface, and the money is not really flowing from the banks to the consumer level. And even if it was, that way mostly leads to consumptive debt and housing bubbles, which is not exactly what we're looking for.
Everyone in favour of a EU-based guaranteed minimum income raise your hands!
* As far as I can see, the public in north-western Europe does not really know or care about the situation in Greece. Athens is closer to Aleppo than to Amsterdam. Solidarity with Greece is low, and this makes spending 'our' money on Greece politically difficult. Hell, even intranational solidarity for spending in regions like Groningen (NL) or East Germany is low.
* The European "rescue packages for Greece" were sold as rescue packages for Greece, however their main goal was to save those who invested in Greece. Without them, some Dutch or German pension funds might have fallen, and then the stuff would really have hit the fan. This has left the northern EU citizens with the idea that they have given a lot of money to Greece, whereas the people in Greece have never seen that money.
* Some southern European countries (mainly Malta, Italy and Greece) are suffering significantly under the refugee flows that have intensified in recent years. This is fundamentally a European issue, so a more unified approach would help. This might remove some of the wind from the sails of the right-wing extremists.
* The EU currently lacks instruments to address an economic downturn. There are some programs for infrastructure, but infrastructure spending is too limited for an entire stimulus program (of this size). Raising benefits or lowering personal income taxes would be the other usual approach but it does not apply to the EU. The ECB can take measures, however these are all at the ECB - Big Bank interface, and the money is not really flowing from the banks to the consumer level. And even if it was, that way mostly leads to consumptive debt and housing bubbles, which is not exactly what we're looking for.
Everyone in favour of a EU-based guaranteed minimum income raise your hands!
* As far as I can see, the public in north-western Europe does not really know or care about the situation in Greece. Athens is closer to Aleppo than to Amsterdam. Solidarity with Greece is low, and this makes spending 'our' money on Greece politically difficult. Hell, even intranational solidarity for spending in regions like Groningen (NL) or East Germany is low.
* The European "rescue packages for Greece" were sold as rescue packages for Greece, however their main goal was to save those who invested in Greece. Without them, some Dutch or German pension funds might have fallen, and then the stuff would really have hit the fan. This has left the northern EU citizens with the idea that they have given a lot of money to Greece, whereas the people in Greece have never seen that money.
* Some southern European countries (mainly Malta, Italy and Greece) are suffering significantly under the refugee flows that have intensified in recent years. This is fundamentally a European issue, so a more unified approach would help. This might remove some of the wind from the sails of the right-wing extremists.
Also, Ori: the minister did not "shut out the EU". In his video of the speech (the interview was largely on that) he specifically said that the gov respects both the eu and the individual countries, but not the non-democratic and 'anti-european in nature' formation of a troika by people who are neither elected nor are inherently in positions looking out for either local or pan-european interest.
I agree with him. Besides, Varouphakis will be in Paris for meeting the French government, and later on to other euro states for the analogous.
i didn't say they shut out the EU, now did I? I said they firmly shut the door on any compromise that would allow both sides to save face. The way it is now either the Greek government will have to accept the Troika back and lose face or the EU as the driving force behind the Troika would ned to accept that past agreements with Greece could be thrown out on a whim without repercussions and agree to further money transfers, making alot of governments lose face. Its a boneheaded move, specifically because the EU Court of Justice will force the Troika to disband anyways in a few months when it issues its rulings on the debt buyout by the ECB - the face saving way to get rid of the Troiks would have been to just let the thing go away without Greece throwing them out. Now they'll either agree to work with the Troika prior to the end of Februay when they need the next cash infusion (which I doubt), or the EU and Germany quite prominently llows itself to be seen as caving (which is slightly more probable) or Greece defaults on its next payments - whatever that means.
Its a joke really to say they want a debt conference which for all intents and purposes is what the troika is but not the troika because of democracy - neither the troika nor a debt conference are democratic - but democratic means would have left Greece defaulting long ago - the reason its done on the intergovernmental level instead of on individual countries level is precisely that governments all over are using this as cover to not face their voting public alone.
Holding PhD titles does not mean they would be of sound mind or atleast implement sound policies by the way, trust me, Germans know about that...
aelf
Ashen One
Saudi Arabia and Israel (of all people) are acting in alignment with US interests? You must be living under a rock.
The Israelis draw a lot of the flak from the Arab world that would probably be otherwise directed at the US and the Saudis buy our weapons and supply us with oil so we don't have to use as much of our own.
Do they poke at us and test our patience? Of course, but that's because they have their own interests to look out for. However, they are not yet overtly antagonistic towards us like Russia.
Terxpahseyton
Nobody
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2006
- Messages
- 10,759
Regarding the comparison of German debt and Greek debt: The thing to keep in mind is that the assumption was that a strong German recovery would benefit the whole of Europe. I even have read the wording that Germany had 'paid' its reparations by exports. I am not sure how sensible such a POV is, but the point is: Europe (and Greece) thought they'd help themselves by helping Germany, from what I understand.
On other hand, the Greek economy seems to be pretty irrelevant to Europe. Europe only seems to care about its debt and Euro membership. An only with regard to that about the Greece economy and none about the people themselves.
I think it is only natural for the Greek people to be up-in-arms about that rather than to view the EU as a savior. They aren't saving them. They just provide them with a nasty alternative to bankruptcy and can do so because bankruptcy seems even scarier. But to both of them - so I think it is a fair move by the Greek government to use that to try to get Europe to be more concerned about Greece itself.
Neither is the good guy from my POV, but Greece got the more pressing issues at stake.
On other hand, the Greek economy seems to be pretty irrelevant to Europe. Europe only seems to care about its debt and Euro membership. An only with regard to that about the Greece economy and none about the people themselves.
I think it is only natural for the Greek people to be up-in-arms about that rather than to view the EU as a savior. They aren't saving them. They just provide them with a nasty alternative to bankruptcy and can do so because bankruptcy seems even scarier. But to both of them - so I think it is a fair move by the Greek government to use that to try to get Europe to be more concerned about Greece itself.
Neither is the good guy from my POV, but Greece got the more pressing issues at stake.
aelf
Ashen One
I suppose you missed the recent episode where Bibi tried to openly undermine the authority of your president in Congress. And how about the continued settlements in the West Bank that is derailing all US efforts to create peace in the region? And you think there is not a lot of hatred towards the US for supporting Israel? So what's this whole terrorist thing about again, especially prior to Afghanistan and Iraq?
And you also seem to have missed the fact Saudi Arabia is funding some of those terrorist groups that attack US interests, if not the US itself.
You're either clueless or delusional.
Ireland is coming out the other side. Our economy is growing, unemployment is falling, my taxes were lower in my January pay packet. We should have a small surplus in 2016.
The troika have left.
It isn't perfect but we can see an end to the doldrums.
We are peripheral too by the way but don't need a big army, we pay in other ways such as higher energy costs and imports.
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
