Team Game #2 - OCC Conquest only

[Pangaea]

I suggest we gift Stalin Calendar and try for cautious, maybe we can get Banking for old techs from him.
Mil Tradition for PP from Sury looks fine? Genghis already has it, and they are friendly so Sury might pick it up from him anyways later.
In 3t we can start RP and towards Rifling imo (if Stalin trade also works).

This looks excellent too. Might be lucky that Sury hasn't gotten MilTrad yet as they are friendly in both directions. Good idea with Stalin too. That might push him up to Cautious, and he's mighty backwards anyway so a good chance to get Banking "for free".

Since you mentioned Pikes earlier, how about a Pike now (gives us more overflow again), then 1-turn Citadel next turn when we can get the stone back (we only need it for 1 turn really). Then a treb, and then cannons? All in all that should give us enough OF to 1-turn units, even if we need to re-arrange some tiles from losing Rice after cancelling stone deal. Will soon have our own rice, but probably a good idea to re-do that deal after Citadel to make the health situation easier.

 

[Fippy]

Less excited about a Pike now if we go for Genghis
They lose value rapidly against Cuirs, and Conqs might defend instead already.

But more important, we will want to make haste and getting as many Cannons as we can quickly.
Trebs will also give us a little overflow.
I think we can buy Rice until we get our own for just 6gpt (temporaly building wealth and so, then switching back).

 

[Pangaea]

Fair enough on the pike. C3 Conqs are already really strong anyway. Or ofc C2Horsie against mounted.

Are you able to play today or tomorrow? I'm intrigued to see what happens next, and who you decide to attack.

Since the idea is to go for conquest here, what is required to get that first vassal? Get them down to 1 city?

 

[Fippy]

Yup i can play in a couple hours.
For our General + GS i had super medic (Chariot upgrade) and settling again (best return i think) in mind.
General can split xp 10/10, a very strong formation Conq will also be valuable.

Not sure for vassals, our power rating will be good as theirs drops later, but i think there are also land area reqs?

 

[Fippy]

Okay so Stalin trade worked (cautious with Calendar, then Banking) and we are on RP now.
Genghis teched SM.

Interesting attacks going on between Hatshy and Sury, she captured a city and Genghis moved his units there as result.
I made some pics of their stacks

Spoiler :

We can see that he probably lost a couple units & retreated for now, and Hatshy's are also damaged.

We have 4 cannons atm, 3 of them at Genghis borders already.
Conqs are almost healed (medic in middle, and we have 1 with c4 + promo from that general somewhere). Some plundered, why they are at otherwise strange tiles
Attacking thru Brennus looks good, what do we think about this situation overall?

 

[Pangaea]

Very nice write-up That's a lot of units between them, but in a few turns there will probably be fewer units and red muck on the ground Hopefully Genghis doesn't simply wipe out Hatty, but suffers bad losses himself too.

I've not looked at the save yet, but it does indeed appear like Genghis is the biggest problem now, after Hatty got taken down a peg or two from all the warfare. Cathy should be a non-factor, I just hope she will break free at some point and we can cap her without needing to deal with island cities. Would feel much better if we can seriously injure Genghis. If we were to leave him alone, he could run away with the game. We'll just have to deal with resettled cities in the east later. Even with Deity bonuses, they won't be up to speed anyway.

Not concerned about the money. We have heaps of gold and will get more for each city razed. We're bleeding money, but that's because of the iron deal, which we kinda need

 

[Fippy]

Yep gold was my last worry lol, am sure that we can keep teching at 100% for a long long time still.
Genghis would have 1k gold for Lib, but it's still a monopol so hmm..maybe not the time for advancing them.

We will have a great doomstack soon with cannons, i was hoping we can split them first when we declare for 2 cities destroyed, and then maybe combining them until we have more units.
But if Genghis keeps having so many Cuirs running around, we might need 1 big stack at start to avoid losses.

I think Rifling will be another military advantage for us, we can keep building Cavs with 3 promos then (Cannons before, so we have them done?), and also Iron can be cancelled once we are done with Cannons.
In any way it's promising to be an exciting game

Out this evening, can only play tomo again.

 

[Pangaea]

Have had a little look.

Did ponder about going at Hatty again while half the world are at war with her, but I think our better chance is Genghis. He's pretty powerful and needs to be dealt with. Can soon get cannons himself, and several AIs are getting close to rifling, or Military Science and Grenadiers. Once one of Sury/Genghis gets one of these key techs, the other is likely to soon follow due to friendly relations. Perhaps they're racing for Economics right now for the free GP, but both are big and will tech fast -- especially Genghis. Currently he's in a golden age which skews demographics, but he's well ahead the others in gold rate, and has the most powerful army -- possibly well ahead of no 2 if the average is to be somewhat trusted (depends on distribution). We need to deal with him.

Hattie and Cathy have already re-settled some land, but that can't be helped. We deal with it later. Most likely they will at best have 40% culture, and with worse infra. The two I can see are re-settled are also on flatland. Looks like Hattie will re-settle on the city ruins between the mountains near "our" rice, which may mess with us getting them, but not a big deal I suppose.

Thank goodness Brennus has Burgundian in the area, otherwise our iron deal may have got cancelled when we declare on Genghis. Never quite sure how this trade-route business works, but it looks that way.

Currently we have 37 base , which means we can 1-turn cannons (or more conqs) without OF help. For 110 Rifles we need 40 base hammers, which is no problem (scientist -> workshop)

What do you think about when we declare?

One way is to simply invade from NW of where the cannons are stationed right now, so we can reach Seattle in two turns with cannon support. And alternatively also from the south (through Brennus' land). Another way, and I'm not entirely sure what would happen here given all the warfare and suchlike: we could park a stack in the pre-chopped forest and hope Genghis invades. Then clean him out.

All depends a good bit on what happens with the two pretty big Hatty and Genghis stacks poised to knock heads, and how long that war actually drags on.

Doesn't look like Sury is up to much militarily, so maybe can't rely on help from him, whatever we opt for next. Main threat from him is probably getting Cannons or Grens, and handing it off to Genghis. Unfortunately Genghis already has SciMeth as trade good, but in any case it's another reason to not trade away Liberalism for that wad of cash. Not like we need it anyway, although 1000+ is certainly tempting

I think we are safe from a bribe from Genghis on Brennus, since Brennus tells us he doesn't like us enough when hovering over Sury. Cautious all around there. Stalin looks like a non-entity anyhow, but is annoyed with Genghis so no threat there. Even if Brennus decides to be naughty on his own, apart from Burgundian his empire is far away, so won't be up to much I reckon.

Can't be bothered to re-upload just for moving one unit one tile, but while looking around I moved a horsie and looked inside Nongoma. Many injured units, but maybe fewer than before? Maybe Genghis hit it?

Spoiler :

Edit: Do we want Ivory from Brennus?

 

[Fippy]

Sorry i had forgotten about Civ,
agree that going after Hatshy again would leave Genghis too strong.
Not sure how Brennus got that city again, think i missed it hmm..but useful for us yup.

If their stacks clash that would be best for us before attacking (obvious),
my first plan was to wait until 6 cannons are in position so we can have 3 for each stack.
Philadelphia would be only 1 tile away after moving in, Seattle 2.

Genghis did hit Hatshy's city yep, he had more units in that stack before.
Sadly they retreated afterwards.

Overall if we can raze 3-4 cities without running into major problems, losing some units would probably be worth it.
Not easy finding the best timing thou in occ.
I would say during the next turns, waiting a bit seems wise as we are not in full strength yet.

 

[Pangaea]

Isn't it a bit risky to split up in two stacks upon DOW when Genghis has so many Cuirs running about? He can flank cannons too, if he gets some lucky shots.

Ideal scenario is that Hatty and Genghis bang against each other, both get badly wounded, and then we strike. May not happen like that, tho.

 

[Fippy]

If you can (and want to) play before tomorrow evening, go ahead
We can wait for a good dow moment for now.

 

[Pangaea]

If you can (and want to) play before tomorrow evening, go ahead
We can wait for a good dow moment for now.

If you are able to play today or tomorrow, then I'd prefer it if you did. It's a pretty critical moment, and I don't want to make dire mistakes. Also played a fair few turns earlier.

Of course, others are free to jump in too

 

[Fippy]

Ack i had less time than i hoped, but moved on 2 turns so we can see some development.
Took Ivory from Brennus, good idea.
Genghis teched Astro next (and Suley Constitution), hmm i wonder if we will have to be wary of galleons.

Spoiler :

Pic2 just for some fun, 2 Cuirs resting in Madrid..
So Genghis moves some of his units against Hatshy, who sneaked in that Rice city as expected and also has ~10 units on the forest.

Moved our cannons into the middle so they can attack both Phila and Seattle, Conqs are healed, and Brennus plots war.
Phila has only 3 defenders, still very tempting for a little split. Pikes and Maces should be no-factors,
all about Cuirs so i expect we take formation on many when we attack.

 

[Pangaea]

Woke up very early again before the alarm clock (I'm in Europe), so had a look at the save. Looks like Hattie and Genghis will slay each other next turn, so maybe that is the time for us to strike? In that case we should move cannons near Madrid 1W of the forest (would have been useful with a road there, although it makes forest spread harder) so they can get to Seattle one turn faster. Would be nice to have more cannons for both stacks, but if it seems right to attack in 1-2 turns, maybe we should still just go for it?

One thing we need to keep an eye out for, if the war on Genghis goes well, is that he doesn't cap to Hattie. As bad as it was that Cathy capped to her, Genghis too would be a disaster.

Brennus plotting, that is good. He hates Stalin, but I suppose it is more likely he is plotting on Catherine, planning a suicide. They share borders, although not a big one. Unless it's us of course.

A pile of Genghis beer buddies about. But most of the Cuirs have the wrong promotions, so our Combat (+Formation) lads should slaughter them. If the clash with Hattie goes badly for him, he may not even be able to counter much.

Spoiler :

On Hattie v Genghis war and the possible capping later: Hattie says "We'd rather win the game...". Not sure what that actually means, I mean what triggers it, but if we both bloody Genghis and can't bribe her off him, she will cap him at some point.

 

[Fippy]

I never noticed the 1w of forest tile being in our culture
Will fix road & movement asap.

Ragnar (or Hatty in this game ) probably has so many units, that she thinks wars should go well.
Yup we will have to be careful each turn about AIs capping.

 

[Fippy]

I played (with dow on Genghis), and it's Hatshy making our life difficult again
First the war preparations, Genghis has some success in capturing Sury's former city..

Spoiler :

..i wait another turn, and he moved more units in to secure:

Spoiler :

I see no point in waiting more, and those are the units he has when we reach Seattle & Phila:

Spoiler :

..then Brennus asks us for this

Spoiler :

,i think for a while and agree. Sury, Genghis and Hatshy too lately have Mil Trad already, and we can use some friends on this map (got pleased and 10t peace).
Another overview pic of stacks after some cannons city defense bombarding, odds were not that great:

Spoiler :

Better now, main reason for this pic = Hatshy's stack, i think for a moment and do not attack with all our guys, leaving 7 units inside (others were too tempting..):

Spoiler :

..my hopes for Genghis securing his city more fail thou, and Hatshy takes it
They also make peace now:

Spoiler :

I shake off my frustration and attack Seattle, no losses here:

Spoiler :

At this point i stopped, Hatshy started plotting again very fast and she has Cuirs now.
Ofc we are also her worst enemy, wonder why..

Not much doubt that we would have nps moving further on Genghis imo,
but Ragnar (i know i know Hatshy..) with advanced units like Cuirs will most likely declare on us soon

(we can trade Rice from Brennus, and Hatshy stole our 2nd silk with yet another re-settle so we are unhappy currently ~~)

 

[Fippy]

New post for situation analysis, i think we have to stop with Genghis and take care of Hatshy (he should be pleased for the moment again too).
1.5k gold for Lib also looks very tempting, full value i think? If he gives all.

Overall i lost no units in this quick war, and built some Conqs inbetween cannons for security.
Genghis was cut down a bit, but overall not as much progress as we want ofc.
Thou we will get Rifling in 5t i think (no city management done yet, should get scientists back), and i guess some Rifles will be really good against Cuirs.

 

[Pangaea]

New post for situation analysis, i think we have to stop with Genghis and take care of Hatshy (he should be pleased for the moment again too).
1.5k gold for Lib also looks very tempting, full value i think? If he gives all.

Thanks for playing

Okay, so things didn't go exactly as we hoped, but no biggie. It may play into our hands.

First, I agree we need to break off the Genghis war and deal with Hattie. She will have a peace treaty with Sury and Genghis for another 7-ish turns, so realistically she is only going to be plotting on us. We can't have a two front war with two beasts. I looked at the save, and Genghis will pay 175g for peace, so he's hurting bad (probably because we lost no units and he lost a city). With peace he may be pleased with us. If we raze more cities he won't be. He has taken Nongoma and will probably park a bunch of units there to try to retain it (lots of cultural pressure I think). Genghis and Brennus have OB, so he should be able to get back and fro. Later on, we can smack into that stack, and hopefully kill a good portion of his army, with another stack pouncing through Brennus' land.

Hattie has a bunch of damaged units in Seattle. We even have units right outside it. Some damaged, but with left so they can heal this turn. The muskets and suchlike will probably move into the city, but only one musket has city guardian. Just about everybody else are damaged and/or won't get defensive bonuses (which are mostly gone anyway as the city is in revolt). It's on flatland.

Even our damaged units are mostly okay and can fight. We have at least 6 full-health cannons that can attack the city next turn. I think we can quite safely wipe her stack and raze the city

Units that don't need healing can smash some stuff for gold. Not sure how you can see the gold for Lib trade with Genghis, but it's certainly tempting to get all that stuff. We're losing around 100g/t, so at some point we will need more. Soon we'll have Rifling too, and can upgrade to Cavs. Since there are a good amount of melee units around, I suppose it's a good idea to keep a contingent of Conqs around? Even if we want to upgrade 20 of the current 25 Conqs, at 80g a pop that's only 1600g, which we can easily afford with our gold + Genghis' (we'd have about 3000g).

We then have a 10t guaranteed peace with Genghis, and can deal with the east. Hattie has no off-shore islands from what I can see, so even if she won't cap (perhaps because Cathy refuses to break free), we can wipe her out entirely. Then I would think Cathy would cap. Maybe success from the previous war counts too? Not sure how that stuff works. In any case she should be very weak. Then Brennus is over there (plus the city in the west), also without offshore islands. He won't be long for this world, even with Cuirs.

Genghis will get Physics in 3 turns. If he is at peace, maybe he is more likely to go for more peaceful techs like Economics, Communism or Biology instead of beelining Rifling? Even with Rifling we should be able to deal with him with CR3 (+C1?) cannons, although combat in the open wouldn't be pretty.

It can even be positive that Genghis is still strong, as that will make it easier to get the others below him in power level, and thereby easier cap them (although I have to assume it's still dang hard in an OCC conquest game - I've never done/played it before).

Once we've dealt with the east, we roll back west with our veteran army, plus the army pumping out of Madrid every single turn.

Think we'll become happy too once the war ends? Though may have left-over war weariness the instant we re-declare on Hattie. However, perhaps we can get some happies from Genghis? Don't recall what trades we had with him before. But if he becomes pleased post-war, it should be no problem to re-establish OB and some resources trades.

Sury will still be friendly and doesn't look as dangerous as Genghis, so hopefully we can deal with him okay after the east is secured and Genghis is done for.

I'm still optimistic about our chances, as we're essentially tech leaders where it matters.


(Edit: We can also get +2 by trading Corn from Brennus for 6 gpt. Also, Genghis won't have copper now, we don't need it, so we should be able to get something good out of that, like Sugar and Incense, unless he has traded away too much of it already.)

 

[Fippy]

I cannot see Lib gold, was hopeful and assumed he will give most or all cos he techs Physics and already would have given 1.1k earlier

Agree that we can be hopeful still, in occ conquests it's mostly about building stacks of experienced units that can overwhelm AIs cos we are just better at war
With 2 solid stacks we can take on ~10 city AIs, if we need not many replacements.

Yup Madrid should become happy, i think just this turn Hatshy stole our silk (questionable that i traded one away, oh well) and cannot remember seeing it unhappy last turn. Also no idea why we work a plains workshop, i checked each turn i think.

I should have traded for corn already yep, saved before doing micro.
Was also my thoughts that we can keep some Conqs, and upgrade some to Cavs. Defensive bonus can still be nice in some areas.
Grens will also appear soon probably.

Attack on Hatshy will be timing games again, but maybe there would be no harm if we can wait for Rifling (and Cavs)?
I would certainly like if we can move our 2 city razing stacks out with Rifling units, and they will not turn back soon.

 

[Pangaea]

Think I'd prefer to declare on Hatty earlier tbh, instead of waiting for Rifles and Cavs. But then I haven't played a game like this before, so it's quite possible I underestimate how quickly we can lose if something goes wrong. Figured we could wipe that stack of hers and the newly captured Seattle, maybe the newly settled cities too. Then stop by our territory for upgrades, and move further east for her core.

What is it best to produce now, you think? More cannons, and then rifles once we have that? Is 25 Conqs enough?

Don't know the odds in your combat, but I suppose we were on the lucky side there too? I know I was lucky in the previous stints. Many 70-80% battles were won, and we suffered no losses while razing 5-6 cities or however many it was.