The 3.0 Development Thread

[apenpaap]

IIRC you posted somewhere that you would give each civ a unique power. My idea for Bajor is the Power of Resistance: a conquered Bajoran city revolts twice as long as a conquered city from another civilization, when it's conquered 1 Exploration class ship per every 5 population spawns on tiles next to the city, and the Bajoran player isn't defeated until all cities and units are destroyed.

 

[TC01]

If that's the case, perhaps a "Power of Biospace" or somesuch would be a cool power for 8472. Like Hell Terrain spread in FFH 2, perhaps Space terrain would turn into "Biospace" terrain if 8472 controlled it? Perhaps a random check for all 8472 plots at the beginning of their turn? Their ships could get movement bonuses, attack bonuses, and defensive bonuses in "Biospace".

 

[deanej]

Most of the traits/unique wonders I'm happy with (but that doesn't mean that I might not change them if persuaded); there are a few that I haven't figured out but I have at least some effect for everything (though some I really want to change to something better, and some of the UWs are better suited as traits than UWs). I'll be posting about those soon.

 

[apenpaap]

If that's the case, perhaps a "Power of Biospace" or somesuch would be a cool power for 8472. Like Hell Terrain spread in FFH 2, perhaps Space terrain would turn into "Biospace" terrain if 8472 controlled it? Perhaps a random check for all 8472 plots at the beginning of their turn? Their ships could get movement bonuses, attack bonuses, and defensive bonuses in "Biospace".

That sounds like an awesome idea.

Another idea, for Cardassia: The Power of the Union. In the first turn, you get to choose what part of the state you want to be the most important:
-Central Command (Gain the Aggressive trait)
-Obsidian Order (Gain the Inquisitive trait)
-Detapa Council (Gain the Philosophical trait)
-Oralian Way (Gain the Spiritual trait)
-The people are the ones that should be ruling! (Gain the Rebellious trait)
Though that may be a bit overpowered.

 

[JareshInyo]

This is a great mod, but I have a few suggestions.

Technologies
more techs would make the game much better, here are some suggestions

Interstellar Economics- Requires mercantile theory and takes some of the early economic buildings
Holographic Labor- Allows caste system, which could be renamed holographic labor, requires EMH
Adv. Warp Theory-Exp III, Adv Deep space probe, requires transwarp9 (light 3 tech)
Omega Synthesis-Requires bio-neural gel packs, allows construction of new building, omega reactor

The omega reactor would be a more modern power plant and could be required to build omega torpedoes, advanced forms of nuclear weapons other than subspace weapons.

Also, It seems like the civics are all given to early in the game. ing them out would make the game more interesting. Also, serfdom could be renamed "Penal Labor" and caste system could become "holographic labor" and require the tech with that name.

Finally, the two starbases are at opposite ends of the tech tree. Why not add a starbase in between with 30 strength. Also, ard ranges of starbases should increase as the starbase is upgraded. (one would have range 1, one range 2, one range 3, or something of the sort.)

 

[TC01]

The Star Trek Mod for Civilization III (Forum, Thread) had a pretty full tech tree. Of course, I don't know how many techs there were in Civ III versus Civ IV, but you could draw from that if you need ideas for techs.

 

[John DiFool2]

I have a thought, tho it would require a serious overhaul of the tech system. I'd like warp speeds to be decoupled from the ship classes, and become a "free-floating" capability. As you reach the appropriate tech, all of your ships gain +1 movement point, up to whatever the maximum warp factor is in Civ terms. So unless you research along the Warp Tech line, your ships will remain hopelessly slow no matter how "advanced" they are otherwise. [If you would have to pay to upgrade the speeds so much the better, if that's doable.]

 

[JareshInyo]

I think the technology tree should go farther into the future, incorporating some of the ideas shown in the Voyager time travel episodes and in the Enterprise ones. Here are some ideas:

A new unit, time ship, that each species can build. They could have a form of invisibility and be able to temporal ard, and destroy a ship by altering the timeline. Only one would be allowed per civ, and only the another timeship could defend against it. This could also become what the krenim temporal weapon replaces.

The Augustus and Opoka from the Millenium scenario/modmod could be added as units for the federation, and each civ could have something similar.

Some form of an aircraft carrier

future technologies such as Ablative Armor, transphasic torpedoes, and Temporal Mechanics

New units graphic outfitted with ablative armor

 

[Blaer]

I am curious about promotions. In the FF mod, from which this most excellent mod was born, the list was more... diverse, I would say, and gave more options towards unit specialization. Though I am aware that the three types of units have their respective places, I was wondering if you may have any plans to implement either more of the "specialized" promos, or perhaps split the units up into more group types?
While I'm here, and the space is mine (took it fair and square I would like to reiterate how much I both enjoy this mod, and how little of civ 4 gets played on my pc because of it

 

[apenpaap]

I have a suggestion for Serfdom: atm it is largely useless unless you're the Vaadwaur, as there are so few improvements to be made. To make it more useful, maybe it should also halve the money Starbases and Sensor Stations cost.

 

[deanej]

That cost is coded in the XML; I'm not sure how to alter it with a civic. I do agree that Serfdom needs to be changed, though.

 

[deanej]

I'm going to be gone until Tuesday/Wednesday, but before I leave, I'm posting the unique wonders/civ traits for work. Anything with a - next to it I'm fairly happy with, I'm putting it here so you can see what all of them are so there isn't duplication, etc. Anything with a * is pretty much "I don't like it but couldn't think of anything else" so it needs something.

Unique Wonders (see python wonders):
-Federation Headquarters (Federation): similar to Apolostic Palace
*Monastary of Kahless (Klingon): +5 happy all cities
-Tal Shiar Headquarters (Romulan): +100% espionage
*Palace of the Grand Nagus (Ferengi): increse reserves by 50%, 2% interest on reserve
-Obsidian Order (Cardassian): -75% war weariness
-The Great Link (Dominion): +1 spy, +1 scientist, +1 artist
-Unimatrix One (Borg): free advanced repair, all units
*Raiding Command Ceanter (Kazon): +100% gold from pillaging, enemies can't pillage
-Museum to the Hunt (Hirogen): Free Hunter every few turns (req tech) in city
-Cure for the Phage (Vidiian): +2 health all cities, grow by 2 pop
-Ancient City of Bahala (Bajor): Free golden age when built (former world wonder)
*Museum of Sovereignty (Breen): units killed in cities add culture
-Museum of Lost Civilizations (Krenim): +100% culture, +50% science
-Stealth Research Center (Devore): units built in city recieve free cloaking device promo
*Underspace Research Station (Vaadwaur): free flanking 2 for units built in city
-Center of Cultural Exchange (First Federation): 1 free tech when built
-Center of Exchange (Gorn): +1 trade all cities, +2 trade
-Webspinner Factroy (Tholian): units built in city get assimilator promo
-Military History Museum (Terran Empire): +5 GP points for Great General
-Military Database (Alliance): 20% change to train vassal's UU in city
*Xindi Council (Xindi): Can capture rival civ's UBs
-Resistance Headquarters (Maquis): city in resistance if not owned by Maquis
-Central Slave Marketplace (Orion): GP bonus when hurrying by population
*Helix (Suliban): 20% change for units to heal after combat victory
-Distant Orgin Theory (Voth): 10 turns anarchy, no future anarchy, +50% science, +15 culture
-Universe Portal (Species 8472): spread grav feature (combat penalty)

Civ Traits:
-Federation: better diplomatic standing
-Klingons: less experience to level up
-Romulans: free cloaking device all units
-Ferengi: treasury begins with 10x normal gold
-Cardassian: mining facility provide +2 production instead of +1, star systems -1 food
-Dominion: new units begin with +3xp
-Borg: units get assimilator promo (25% chance to capture defeated ship)
-Kazon: +1 food/production from trade routes (remember to update updatePlotYield!)
-Hirogen: Light ships get free city raider
-Vidiian: free medic1 all units
-Bajor: enemy units take damage every turn
-Breen: free sentry all units
-Krenim: free combat 1 all units
-Devore: +25% espionage
-Vaadwaur: none
-First Federation: 2 science all cities
-Gorn: all units free combat 2
-Tholian: Free drill 2 all units
-Terran: +50% great general
-Alliance: no resistance in captured cities
-Xindi: systems begin with 2 pop
-Maquis: free leadership all units
-Orion: +1 trade all cities
*Suliban: free ace all units
-Voth: +1 culture, +25% culture
-Species 8472: bonus on grav feature

 

[TC01]

I stand by my earlier idea that 8472 should have some mechanic to spread Biospace throughout their empire, thus giving them additional strength, defense, movement, etc, and weakening other ships in Biospace. I think that would be better as 8472's unique trait... or perhaps it should be the Universe Portal? Or perhaps the wonder should be something that when built causes Space to begin to turn into Biospace?

 

[deanej]

I can do something along the lines of having the Universe Portal randomly give plots a feature that hurts defense for everyone (except possibly 8472 if I can do that in XML, but I don't think I can) and gives a bonus for 8472 (via the trait; this would cancel out the penalty if I can't directly remove it and provide an additional bonus on the feature). I can then move the free combat 1 to either the Suliban, Tholians, or Devore (or Breen/Gorn if I changed it to combat 2).

Any ideas for other traits/wonders?

 

[deanej]

I've updated the lists on the previous post; basically I added the 8472 changes and the Gorn trait change and changed some traits from * to -. So now I basically need a new Suliban trait (as the listed one is quite weak) and some stuff for wonders (most of the ones marked for change function like traits that you build; I basically copied some of the python wonders and didn't consider that some of the effect is lost since a given civ is guaranteed to get it and other's can't); I'm not sure about the Vaadwaur one (too strong/weak?).

I should mention that the Vaadwaur will be getting a UU in 3.0 (this is why they have no trait; the starting Subspace Corridors tech functions like one).

Also: can units using quick attack be intercepted? If so, I need to make the Ace promotion available to exploration units.

 

[apenpaap]

AFAIK Quick Attack can't be intercepted. It would be interesting though if you can make it interceptible.

I also like the new changes you made to the traits list, but I think it would be cooler if every trait had a name, like in RFC. You know what, I'll do it myself:

-Federation: The power of Diplomacy
-Klingons: The power of Honour
-Romulans: The power of The cloak
-Ferengi: The power of Acquisition
-Cardassian: The power of The Union
-Dominion: The power of The Jem'Hadar
-Borg: The power of Assimilation
-Kazon: The power of Trade
-Hirogen: The power of the Hunt
-Vidiian: The power of the Phage (BTW, may I suggest having this power add 3 unhealth in all cities until Cure for the Phage is built? To balance this, Cure for the Phage could also give Advanced Repair to all units)
-Bajor: The power of Resistance
-Breen: The power of Paranoia
-Krenim: The power of Chroniton torpedoes
-Devore: The power of Inspection
-Vaadwaur: none
-First Federation: The power of Exploration
-Gorn: ???
-Tholian: The power of Webs
-Terran: The power of The Empire
-Alliance: The power of Tyranny
-Xindi: The power of The council
-Maquis: ???
-Orion: The power of Organized crime
*Suliban: ???
-Voth: The power of Ancientness (Is that a real word?)
-Species 8472: The power of Biospace

 

[deanej]

I think I can fill in the blanks:
-Gorn: not sure, but I realized that the Krenim and Gorn had the same net effect from their traits, so I changed the Gorn back to free nav 1 that they had when I first came up with them (the ship in TOS was really fast)
-Vaadwaur: might give a text-only power of Underspace trait
-Maquis: The power of resourcefulness
-Suliban: power of genetic engineering (changed to give free advanced repair)

If nobody has objections, we can figure out the wonders.

Also: gave the -3 health to Vidiian trait, cure for phage grants additional +3 to balance it out when built.

 

[apenpaap]

Something you may consider adding is the differentiated religions in my modmod. It gives each religion different benefits. I don't have the exact amounts here, but Exploration gives science and XP, Total Logic simply gives a lot of science, Waarior's Code gives XP and culture, Isolationism gives espionage and XP, Capitalism gives lots of money and happyness, Prophets mainly gives happyness and culture, and Service to the State (A new religion that takes Pah-wrait's place and is the starting tech for Cardassia, Dominion, Vaadwaur and Terran Empire) has a number of small effects.

 

[KittJT]

Now, i know i don't come around often, but i'm an avid star trek, as well as civ 4 fan, and i have to say as soon as bts came out with the final frontier, i almost drooled at the prospect of a star trek mod. Well, i downloaded one (cant remember which as i have long since deleted it) and i have to say, was very dissapointed. Long have i wanted to make my own star trek mod, but i have never modded anything before, and i'm afariad i have no idea how. however, regardlessly, i have given great thought to it anways. With any star trek game/mod, there are always 2 types of people out there. the first being the ones who don't care, and like everything over the top and have as much as you can get. The problem with this is that the less and less canon you get, the less and less it feels like star trek. THe other type are the ones who would want a star trek SIMULATION. everything has to be exactally like the series. no innovation, no interesting concepts, some races horribly overpowered, some horribly underpowered. THe problem here is that it become not very fun. The entire game you would have sparse ships, and there would be no war. No, the correct path would be down the middle.
Here's my honest opinion of some of the good and bad things that can be done with a star trek mod.

1. having minor powers play a major role is not a good thing.
The best example that comes to mind here would be having the ferengi or bajor (or similarly regarded races) playable. Sure, they're an integral part of the star trek universe, (and might be a good idea for a minor, unplayable race in a large scenario). But in all honesty, in any of the series, the ferengi or bajorans never play a large power role. bajor only has the one planet (plus a couple temporary colonies). It would be much better to have bajor as a star system in say a galaxy map, than a playable race. Same stands for say, breen. Yes, they are cool and play a large role in the dominion war, but we've only ever seen one ship of theirs. again, cool for a scenario as an unplayable, but maybe not best for a simple ffa. I think enough said here.

2. Starting out too quick, too fast.
The tech tree should be at least as large as that in final frontier. With all the culture surrounding star trek, it shouldn't be hard. infact, if the 'age system' is used, you can start in enterprise era, and move through the tech tree into the modern (and even more than modern if you like) eras. Like i said, i am an avid star trek fan, but the game should still feel like well-paced, well-balanced game of civ (albeit a super-awesome-cool game of civ)

3. Hordes of UUs for the eras.
Every game i play that has star trek in it, has a rediculous amount of ships that we've never even seen on screen. Star trek gaming, and fan creation is awesome, but we never heard of half of them before somebody comes out with them. Now i realize to make a balanced game, it will require some digging, and probabaly some faking in order to fill in say, the units for cardassians for the early game, but there's no reason to have a maquis raider with an intrepid saucer section welded on the front

4. Borg
I realize i could just not play with borg, but for balancing issues, they just have to be omitted from regular gameplay (scenarios would def. be cool though). simply put, there is no way to balance it, wile still keeping the flavor of the series intact.

5. A simple promotion re-vamp
Instead of combat 1, or armor 1, please, make some graphics (or if you won't i will) for a different button. However, the system already put forth in final frontier (FF) is great. For unit classes, splitting them into groups like light ships, heavy ships, battleships, etc. was a great thing for them to do. In star trek, would be like frigates, light cruisers, heavy cruisers, battleships, escort, etc.

6. Ship production/balancing.
One interesting departure from regular civ gameplay that i think a star trek mod could afford is the percieved value of materiel, and the inability to convert. to describe this, i'll contrast regular civ to ST. In real world, a new technology comes along, you hand your Longbowman or swordsman a gun, train them on it, and done. You've upgraded your unit for a couple bucks. In ST however, a ship is a huge construct, that constantly undergoes refits, and eventually, decomissioned.

Adding this to the game would be an AWESOME change. for example. The excelsior class was first released in 2285, and was the top of its line then. By 2375 (the end of the dominion war) the excelsior class is probabaly the most plentiful (along with the miranda) ship, and serves as the backbone of the fleet, spotted by galaxies, steamrunners, and supposedly at least 2 sovereigns (USS enterprise and the USS sovereign, although neither are ever seen in an episode. So 90 years after their production, they are still plentiful despite more advanced ships to come out. This is because of refits. In star trek, ships aren't "upgraded," an excelsior isn't magically replaced by a galaxy. Instead they're refitted. Having upgraded models such as excelsior I, II, III, etc. would add a flavor (and diversity) to an otherwise monotoned fleet. No new graphics would be required, just an upgraded strength, and maybe movement value. Eventually, the ships would get outdated (there aren't any constitutions in ds9) and (like in real life) would be useless and deleted (decomissioned) to avoid paying maintenance. Just a thought

I have more, but i'm too lazy to type everything all out, especially considering it probabaly won't be integrated.
Anyways, sorry for the block of text, hope you keep some of those things in mind. I would offer my services and time if i knew how. But if you are desperate for help, i suppose i could learn.

 

[apenpaap]

Welcome to the forums!

1. having minor powers play a major role is not a good thing.
The best example that comes to mind here would be having the ferengi or bajor (or similarly regarded races) playable. Sure, they're an integral part of the star trek universe, (and might be a good idea for a minor, unplayable race in a large scenario). But in all honesty, in any of the series, the ferengi or bajorans never play a large power role. bajor only has the one planet (plus a couple temporary colonies). It would be much better to have bajor as a star system in say a galaxy map, than a playable race. Same stands for say, breen. Yes, they are cool and play a large role in the dominion war, but we've only ever seen one ship of theirs. again, cool for a scenario as an unplayable, but maybe not best for a simple ffa. I think enough said here.

I don't agree with this. Let's take Bajor as an example. Their civilization is 2 million years old, and the only reason they aren't really big in star trek is because it took them really long to get to a high industrial level, and when they did the Cardies came. But imagine if their industry had come 500 years earlier (a blink of an eye compared to their civilization's length). They could've been very powerful (Perhaps occupying Cardassia?) and have a major role in the galaxy. Same goes for the other minor races. As for the Breen, they almost won the Dominion the war. In fact, if it weren't for Damar's resistance, they would have. Surely they are worth including, even if we know only a littlre about them?

2. Starting out too quick, too fast.
The tech tree should be at least as large as that in final frontier. With all the culture surrounding star trek, it shouldn't be hard. infact, if the 'age system' is used, you can start in enterprise era, and move through the tech tree into the modern (and even more than modern if you like) eras. Like i said, i am an avid star trek fan, but the game should still feel like well-paced, well-balanced game of civ (albeit a super-awesome-cool game of civ)

Agreed.

3. Hordes of UUs for the eras.
Every game i play that has star trek in it, has a rediculous amount of ships that we've never even seen on screen. Star trek gaming, and fan creation is awesome, but we never heard of half of them before somebody comes out with them. Now i realize to make a balanced game, it will require some digging, and probabaly some faking in order to fill in say, the units for cardassians for the early game, but there's no reason to have a maquis raider with an intrepid saucer section welded on the front

Completly agreed. In my modmod (look in my signature) each civ has 3 UUs. I am striving to make it 5, but since it's a lot of work, it doesn't go very fast.

4. Borg
I realize i could just not play with borg, but for balancing issues, they just have to be omitted from regular gameplay (scenarios would def. be cool though). simply put, there is no way to balance it, wile still keeping the flavor of the series intact.

Then why even try? IMO the hyper-unbalanced Borg we have now are a lot of fun. When you're in a bad mood and just want to destroy a few civilizations without caring about gameplay, they can be fun to play, and when they AI is them, you face a big challenge.

5. A simple promotion re-vamp
Instead of combat 1, or armor 1, please, make some graphics (or if you won't i will) for a different button. However, the system already put forth in final frontier (FF) is great. For unit classes, splitting them into groups like light ships, heavy ships, battleships, etc. was a great thing for them to do. In star trek, would be like frigates, light cruisers, heavy cruisers, battleships, escort, etc.

Agreed.

6. Ship production/balancing.
One interesting departure from regular civ gameplay that i think a star trek mod could afford is the percieved value of materiel, and the inability to convert. to describe this, i'll contrast regular civ to ST. In real world, a new technology comes along, you hand your Longbowman or swordsman a gun, train them on it, and done. You've upgraded your unit for a couple bucks. In ST however, a ship is a huge construct, that constantly undergoes refits, and eventually, decomissioned.

Adding this to the game would be an AWESOME change. for example. The excelsior class was first released in 2285, and was the top of its line then. By 2375 (the end of the dominion war) the excelsior class is probabaly the most plentiful (along with the miranda) ship, and serves as the backbone of the fleet, spotted by galaxies, steamrunners, and supposedly at least 2 sovereigns (USS enterprise and the USS sovereign, although neither are ever seen in an episode. So 90 years after their production, they are still plentiful despite more advanced ships to come out. This is because of refits. In star trek, ships aren't "upgraded," an excelsior isn't magically replaced by a galaxy. Instead they're refitted. Having upgraded models such as excelsior I, II, III, etc. would add a flavor (and diversity) to an otherwise monotoned fleet. No new graphics would be required, just an upgraded strength, and maybe movement value. Eventually, the ships would get outdated (there aren't any constitutions in ds9) and (like in real life) would be useless and deleted (decomissioned) to avoid paying maintenance. Just a thought.

I agree with this too, but it would be a lot of work.