The all new, totally accepted, bigotry thread - "Blame a Christian"

Oh, wait, yeah, my brain's just not joining the dots there, sorry. :crazyeye:

Does that mean that anybody who believes in Christ is saved, and that anybody who doesn't is damned, regardless of how good or bad they actually are? Or am I taking that too literally?
 
But his divinity was only decided at the Council of Nicea, three hundred years after his death, so surely it would only mean that you believe that he existed? :think:
 
Traitorfish said:
Oh, wait, yeah, my brain's just not joining the dots there, sorry. :crazyeye:

Does that mean that anybody who believes in Christ is saved, and that anybody who doesn't is damned, regardless of how good or bad they actually are? Or am I taking that too literally?
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You're not taking it too literally, but you also have to read through other parts of the Bible to see what the Christian life looks like. Here are some other scriptures, with the key points bolded:

Christ says in John 15:5- I am the vine, you are the branches, whoever abides in me, and I in him, he will bear much fruit for apart from me you can do nothing.

And of course, James says faith without works is dead.

Works are evidence that you have a real and living faith, if you have none, its unlikely that you really believed in Jesus, even if you say you did.
 
What happens to people who live outside of Christianity societies? Are they just screwed because they had the bad luck to be born in circumstances in which they were unlikely to adopt this belief system? I mean, I, at least, had every opportunity to lead a Christian life and simply chose not to, but the same cannot be said of, say, a Chinese peasant. It seems strange that God would permit these people to flourish while condemning them to hell.

(As for how aborted foetuses fit into this, given that you regard them as possessing of complete human souls, I really dread to think.)
 
Traitorfish said:
What happens to people who live outside of Christianity societies? Are they just screwed because they had the bad luck to be born in circumstances in which they were unlikely to adopt this belief system? I mean, I, at least, had every opportunity to lead a Christian life and simply chose not to, but the same cannot be said of, say, a Chinese peasant. It seems strange that God would permit these people to flourish while condemning them to hell.

(As for how aborted foetuses fit into this, given that you regard them as possessing of complete human souls, I really dread to think.)
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Those who are utterly unable to accept Christ for whatever reason (As opposed to simply not wanting to) is considered debatable amongst Evangelicals, but since Christ said that you have to have faith like a child to enter Heaven, I do think it would be logical that young children who die would go to Heaven.

As for those who haven't heard, I think that they may go to Heaven if they would have accepted upon hearing, but I leave that up to God. They technically didn't "Not believe" so much as simply being unaware of the truth.
 
GhostWriter16 said:
Those who are utterly unable to accept Christ for whatever reason (As opposed to simply not wanting to) is considered debatable amongst Evangelicals, but since Christ said that you have to have faith like a child to enter Heaven, I do think it would be logical that young children who die would go to Heaven.
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I don't follow. Surely, when he says "faith like a child", what he means a sincere and uncritical faith, lacking in the jadedness and scepticism of adulthood, rather than suggesting that there is anything about children in particular that offers salvation. Not all children believe in Christ, that much is self-evident, it's simply that those who do tend to believe sincerely and wholeheartedly.

As for those who haven't heard, I think that they may go to Heaven if they would have accepted upon hearing, but I leave that up to God. They technically didn't "Not believe" so much as simply being unaware of the truth.
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Couldn't you argue, though, that many atheists are similarly unaware of the truth, insofar as they've never really had the truth put to them?

If simply coming into contact with the notion of Christ's divinity is enough to force you to make a choice, then it's quite likely that your backwoods Chinese peasant is damned. But assuming God isn't so arbitrary as all that, he would permit the peasant to first have the ideas presented to him before forcing him to make this sort of choice. But then we find ourselves asking what constitutes a satisfactory presentation- certainly just hearing about it wouldn't be enough, and even the occasional exposure to missionary preaching wouldn't seem to do it, given that God, if anyone, knows human scepticism of new ideas. Rather, it would seem that you needs to have the key tenants of Christian theology put to you clearly and distinctly by somebody who knows there stuff, because only then would you actually be working with the sort of information you need to make a rational choice. (After all, God clearly gave us the rationality that prevents us falling for every self-appointed messiah for a reason. He may ask unsceptical faith, but that doesn't he wants us to be gullible.)

But what's the significance of a clear and distinct explanation as opposed to a muddled and indistinct one? Obviously, that it allows clear and distinct understanding. So can it not be said that the choice is presented to you not by the explanation, but by the understanding of it? (After all, it would be no good if you explained this to me in French, because as far as I'm concerned you may just have made a series of random squawking noises.) So could you not say that only by fully and clearly comprehending the principle of Christ's divinity and then choosing to reject it does one damn oneself? It seems the only fair thing for God to allow, because anything less means damning people simply because they had the cards stacked against them from the start.

And, speaking honestly, how many atheists do you think actually possess such an understanding?


(And I'm sorry if this feels like I'm trying to twist you arm or anything, but it seems like it's worth really working through this to see where we actually stand.)
 
Robert Heinlein said, "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." That's certainly true, given that there are frequent arguments on what even constitutes a Christian.

George Bernard Shaw said, "No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means." I'm afraid that's even more true, especially with those who attempt to use the Bible to defend any viewpoint.
 
west india man said:
But his divinity was only decided at the Council of Nicea, three hundred years after his death, so surely it would only mean that you believe that he existed? :think:
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I doubt that humans have any say in His Divinity. They may have finally convinced themselves. Either He was or He was not, but for humans to decide that would not change history and what actually happened.
 
Well, Jesus being divine or otherwise is a matter of belief. It's not as if we can test it empirically.
 
timtofly said:
I doubt that humans have any say in His Divinity. They may have finally convinced themselves. Either He was or He was not, but for humans to decide that would not change history and what actually happened.
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The question was whether only those who believed in Christ's divinity would be saved. This would mean all early Christians before the Council of Nicea would be screwed, independent of Christ's actual nature.
 
But his divinity was only decided at the Council of Nicea, three hundred years after his death
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This would mean all early Christians before the Council of Nicea would be screwed, independent of Christ's actual nature.
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Didn't the Arians also consider Christ divine, only inferior to God the Father? Anyway, the mainstream Christian option even some centuries before Nicea was that Jesus was a God. Quotes courtesy of TimONeill's "History vs the Da Vinci Code" site:
Spoiler :
Ignatius of Antioch (50 AD-117 AD)

"Ignatius ... to the Church which is at Ephesus, ... united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God."
(Letter to the Ephesians, Prologue)

"There is one physician who is possessed of both flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in the flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
(Letter to the Ephesians, Chapter 7)

"Do everything as if he (Jesus) were dwelling in us. Thus we shall actually be his temples and he will be within us as our God - as he actually is .... For our God, Jesus Christ .... was born and baptised, that by his passion he might purify the water."
(Letter to the Ephesians, Chapter 15)

"Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time"
(Letter to the Magnesians, Chapter 6)

"...I pray for your happiness for ever in our God, Jesus Christ, ..."
(Letter to Polycarp, Chapter 8)

" "Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which ... is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, [I wish] abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God."
(Letter to the Romans, Prologue)

Aristides (123-4 or 129AD)

(Aristides was a non-Christian philosopher from Athens. In a letter to the Emperor Hadrian he describes what various religions believe about God and the gods):

"The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished."
(Letter to Hadrian, Chapter 2)

Polycarp (110-130 AD)

"...to all under heaven who shall believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead."
(Letter to the Phillipians, Chapter 12)

" 'For whosoever does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is antichrist;' and whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross, is of the devil."
(Letter to the Phillipians, Chapter 7)

Justin Martyr (165 AD)

"The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is also God."
(First Apology, Chapter 63)

"...which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts..."
(Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 36)

"And there are some who maintain that even Jesus Himself appeared only as spiritual, and not in flesh, but presented merely the appearance of flesh: these persons seek to rob the flesh of the promise."
(Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 2)

"For if you had understood what was written by the prophets, you would not have denied that he (Jesus) was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God."
(Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 126)

Melitio of Sardis (170 AD)

"Born as a son, led forth as a lamb, sacrificed as a sheep, buried as a man, he rose from the dead as a God, for he was by nature God and man. He is all things: he judges, and so he is Law; he teaches, and so he is Wisdom; he saves, and so he is Grace; he begets, and so he is Father; he is begotten, and so he is Son; he suffers, and so he is Sacrifice; he is buried, and so he is man; he rises again, and so he is God. This is Jesus Christ, to whom belongs glory for all ages."
(Apology, 8-10)

"Being God and likewise perfect man, he (Jesus) gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity ... and of his humanity ..."
(Apology, 13)

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD)

"He (Jesus) alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things."
(Exhortation to the Greeks, 1:7:1)

"(Jesus is) the expiator, the Saviour, the soother ... quite evidently true God."
(Exhortation to the Greeks, 1:7:1)

Tertullian (193 AD)

"God alone is without sin. The only man who is without sin is Christ, for Christ is also God."
(The Flesh of Christ, 41:3)

"The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God."
(The Flesh of Christ, 5:6-7)

Origen (225 AD)

"Although (Jesus the Son) was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God."
(The Fundamental Doctrines, I, Preface, 4)
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timtofly said:
I doubt that humans have any say in His Divinity. They may have finally convinced themselves. Either He was or He was not, but for humans to decide that would not change history and what actually happened.
Click to expand...

When people say "decided" in this case, they don't mean that the council literally made the decision to turn Christ divine. It means that the council decided that belief in the divinity of Christ is an article of faith or, in other words, that Christians should believe in the divinity of Christ. Duh.
 
Leoreth said:
The question was whether only those who believed in Christ's divinity would be saved. This would mean all early Christians before the Council of Nicea would be screwed, independent of Christ's actual nature.
Click to expand...

Why would they be screwed? I am pretty sure that the apostles had things figured out and they taught others, who in turn taught others. The only thing that changed was Constantine decided there needed to be a centralized governance and all that entails.

aelf said:
When people say "decided" in this case, they don't mean that the council literally made the decision to turn Christ divine. It means that the council decided that belief in the divinity of Christ is an article of faith or, in other words, that Christians should believe in the divinity of Christ. Duh.
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I did say finally convinced themselves.

How many 4th generation Irish immigrants have to be reminded they are Irish years after their great, grandparents settled in a new country? Contrary to being baptized as an infant, Christianity is a personal choice. Unlike "nationality", there are no second generation Christians, much less third or fourth. Having a creed that one can verbalize several dozen times a year does not change facts, it just allows people to express them.
 
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