The Australian lies to its readers about Climate Change

60's and 70's was global cooling.


Link to video.


Why do I have to keep explaining to you that I am NOT arguing that humans are not contributing to warming. I have said all along that the claim has been heavily over-exaggerated! Please make note of it this time, the next time I will just report you for trolling.

Overexaggerated when in fact it's negligible, right? For the purpose of this discussion (necessity of proposed changes to human activity to reduce AGW), that's pretty much the same thing as "we are not having an impact".


Even the pro-AGW wikipedia agrees that the whole atmosphere warms the surface through retention of heat.

From the site:

"The atmosphere protects life on Earth by absorbing ultraviolet solar radiation, warming the surface through heat retention (greenhouse effect), and reducing temperature extremes between day and night (the diurnal temperature variation)."
 
A couple of IPCC reports trying to justify their natural forcing negligance, and trying to fit it into their "perfect model" were thrown around in #163.

Just the first two googled results, to debunk your claim of "ignored." Now it's, what, "negligence?" You were either unclear, or are moving goalposts. (Hey, it could be both!)

The first article makes the incorrect assumption that only greenhouse gases absorb/emit IR,

Wrong. It specifically mentioned all objects, it mentions water vapor. If you're thinking of this, single sentence:

The atmosphere contains several trace gases which absorb and emit infrared radiation.

That's just poor phrasing for a summary, which is what that document - which doesn't ignore natural forcing - is.

You seem to be reading for "gotchas", and as soon as there's something unclear to you, or that you don't understand, you treat it as a debunking.

The second one is completely fabricated as evident in it's assertion "that the net natural forcing (i.e., solar plus volcanic) has been negative over the past two decades, and possibly even the past four decades."

NET is the operative word there. Net natural forcing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Climate_Change_Attribution.png

There is MUCH recorded data indicating the complete opposite, including the fact that between 1975 and 1998 solar activity was high and PDO was positive.

But they don't account for all of the observed changes.

In post #165 a very misleading skepticalscience link was presented. The graph only showed one component of natural forcing.

Yes. It was debunking the "It's all the sun." claim that's often heard. The graph only said it was comparing temperature to solar activity.

I at least showed a graph that took a number of natural forcings into account.

Are you talking about the one that only showed positive forcing? Well, it only showed positive forcings. Are you talking about the one that demonstrated a temperature high with the PDO high that can't be accounted for solely by PDO and solar? Well... it shows how PDO and solar can't account for the observed change.

Post #175 then question the graph on ozone, which I then countered by showing total aerosol counts in the entire atmosphere not rising during the period claimed.

What's the period claimed? Anyway, why leave out the proceeding period? You shouldn't, since the climate doesn't magically reset every few years. And even the graph you provided only shows a steady downward trend from the early 90's. After a major spike, which will matter. And you can see that the drop in volcanic/aerosol forcing was accounted for in the graph above. And it doesn't differentiate between levels over land vs. levels over sea, which can matter. And, overall, it just doesn't make *that* big a difference.

Thus, what point did I fail to address and I'll address it now?

Is "All of them" an allowed answer?

Govts aren't run by scientists, but by politicians. They rely on advice from experts. Experts they assume have followed protocol (in scientists case, scientific method). Ever wondered why pro-AGW scientific papers are only peer-reviewed by other pro-AGW scientists?

Ha. You haven't seen the hearings in the US from the denialist legislators. They don't give a damn about protocol, let alone assume it's been followed. Some are explicit about it being a crypto-communist plot for world control. Or whatever.

You've had to swallow a very large pill: That a LOT of people who have to function in public, displaying much of their work, and against the interests of some powerful groups, can maintain a very big, very important, secret. Either "It's all a hoax" or "We're all actually incompetent." take your pick: From what you've argued it's got to be one or the other.


Psychologists have actually studied the AGW phenominum and found that evidence shows that the shock of "humans, you, are killing the planet and we've not long to live" sends people into a state of shock and fear so deep that the normal questioning that the human brain does is incompacitated. I was too initially, but as I read up on the topic I became skeptical of the claims.

Obvious alternate explanation: You retreated from the idea to the comforting fiction that there is no problem. Or at least if there is there's nothing you can do about it. Classic masochism.

I find that a lot more plausible than the lone voice in the wilderness hypothesis.

Ooooooo I love this one! Not just for the science but also for the fact pro-AGW followers stake their entire argument on it. :D

Probably because it's the first thing google turns up. It's the snopes of AGW.

Where to start......... How about I just let the experts debunk this one. ;)

Gary Novak! Independent scientist! Mushroom Physiologist!

That's your "experts"? Isn't he the guy who criticized Einstein because "you can't square light"?

You must be young. 60's and 70's was global cooling. 70's and 80's was acidification of the atmosphere. 90's was the collapse of the ozone layer.

Just noticed this when looking over the thread.

The first was nothing but a media circus. Like, but lesser than, Mayan Armageddon. The second and third are/were real concerns. Which we did something about.

Combined with Gary Novak! Independent Scientist! it's Poe's Law time.:popcorn:
 
Next you will be saying we can survive with no CO2

*sigh* And even more insults. CO2 is only 0.039% of the atmosphere, and only 3% of that is human emitted CO2. CO2 only absorbs 8% of the whole broad IR bandwidth (which ranges from 1um to 30um on the spectrum), and all of that at low bandwidth. No gas absorbs high bandwidth IR which passes straight through the atmosphere and out into space, which coincidentally is where the majority of IR bandwidth is. Thus if you exclude natural CO2 (which is part of the natural balancing) human emitted CO2 is only 0.0017% of the atmosphere. CO2 absorbs 8% of IR and then re-emits it in all directions at a weaker strength (thin bandwidth spread across broad bandwidth, less retained heat) which is then either absorbed by the next CO2 molecule it gets close to (range determined by height in the atmosphere) or exited to space.

With all those reducing percentages through multiplication, the end result is so minuscule it is literally irrelevant. As I put into perspective before, doubling of the current CO2ppm in a lab environment (simulating surface conditions) resulted in a temp increase of 0.012C. Since CO2 is one of the LEAST impacting GHG's (ie: it absorbs the least amount of IR) it can be said to be one of the least impacting gasses in the atmosphere.
 
Maybe a little outdated but this shows the impact of humans on CO2 levels

dn11638-4_738.jpg


Here's the article it's from: http://www.newscientist.com/article...man-co2-emissions-are-too-tiny-to-matter.html

It explains how human emission and activity influences CO2 levels.
 
*sigh* And even more insults. CO2 is only 0.039% of the atmosphere, and only 3% of that is human emitted CO2. CO2 only absorbs 8% of the whole broad IR bandwidth (which ranges from 1um to 30um on the spectrum), and all of that at low bandwidth. No gas absorbs high bandwidth IR which passes straight through the atmosphere and out into space, which coincidentally is where the majority of IR bandwidth is. Thus if you exclude natural CO2 (which is part of the natural balancing) human emitted CO2 is only 0.0017% of the atmosphere. CO2 absorbs 8% of IR and then re-emits it in all directions at a weaker strength (thin bandwidth spread across broad bandwidth, less retained heat) which is then either absorbed by the next CO2 molecule it gets close to (range determined by height in the atmosphere) or exited to space.

With all those reducing percentages through multiplication, the end result is so minuscule it is literally irrelevant. As I put into perspective before, doubling of the current CO2ppm in a lab environment (simulating surface conditions) resulted in a temp increase of 0.012C. Since CO2 is one of the LEAST impacting GHG's (ie: it absorbs the least amount of IR) it can be said to be one of the least impacting gasses in the atmosphere.

So CO2 is currently only 0.039% of the atmosphere.

According to the New Scientist graphic posted by Ziggy it was 0.0375% in 2004 and 0.0315% in 1958. An increase of 23.8%

You say that
only 3% of that is human emitted CO2
but do not say where the increase is coming from.
 
CO2 only absorbs 8% of the whole broad IR bandwidth

Assuming that's true (and it could be!), wouldn't doubling CO2 then have an effect? It would increase warming, and (though positive feedback) allow more water vapour to increase warming as well.
 
You must be young. 60's and 70's was global cooling. 70's and 80's was acidification of the atmosphere. 90's was the collapse of the ozone layer.

Yeah and they were either found to be wrong and resources weren't wasted (cooling), or they were responded to and largely solved or at least stabilized (acid rain via sulphur dioxide reduction measures like the US' trading scheme, and ozone depletion via the phasing out of chlorofluorocarbons). Why is global warming, which I presume you think belongs in the first category, getting such sustained focus and such huge resources if there's no basis to it?

Sorry, but this OMG PSYCHOLOGY mechanism just doesn't explain the massive international multi-institutional conspiracy of delusion and silence you're positing here.
 
*sigh* And even more insults. CO2 is only 0.039% of the atmosphere, and only 3% of that is human emitted CO2. CO2 only absorbs 8% of the whole broad IR bandwidth (which ranges from 1um to 30um on the spectrum), and all of that at low bandwidth. No gas absorbs high bandwidth IR which passes straight through the atmosphere and out into space, which coincidentally is where the majority of IR bandwidth is. Thus if you exclude natural CO2 (which is part of the natural balancing) human emitted CO2 is only 0.0017% of the atmosphere. CO2 absorbs 8% of IR and then re-emits it in all directions at a weaker strength (thin bandwidth spread across broad bandwidth, less retained heat) which is then either absorbed by the next CO2 molecule it gets close to (range determined by height in the atmosphere) or exited to space.

With all those reducing percentages through multiplication, the end result is so minuscule it is literally irrelevant. As I put into perspective before, doubling of the current CO2ppm in a lab environment (simulating surface conditions) resulted in a temp increase of 0.012C. Since CO2 is one of the LEAST impacting GHG's (ie: it absorbs the least amount of IR) it can be said to be one of the least impacting gasses in the atmosphere.

Your information is false, Dale. Carbon Dioxide content in the atmosphere has been in natural decline, until human activities (a combination of human-caused destruction of a lot of the earth's natural carbon sinks, such as forests which 'eat' carbon out of carbon dioxide molecules through photosynthesis; more than half of the earth's forests have been eliminated through human-caused deforestation over the past few thousand years. Forests could be described as 'tall' carbon sinks in a similar fashion to 'tall' cities in Civ V being more productive, over farms or golf courses. The second human-caused factor, of course, is the more direct emission of carbon dioxide.

This one-two combination (eliminating the carbon-eating, and emitting a lot of carbon) has more than reversed the downward trend of carbon dioxide reduction. In fact, the rate of carbon increase in the atmosphere as a result is more than twice the natural draw-down; this means that humans are responsible for more than 300% (100% loss of downard trend = 100%, +double that for the reversal) of the carbon content increase in the atmosphere (you could think of this as a 'deficit'). The actual carbon content of the atmosphere has resultantly nearly doubled, so in terms of how much carbon dioxide is presently in the atmosphere, almost 50% is the result of human activity.

The climate change model has been in development for some 60 years, and across the globe, there is huge evidence confirming it. The Arctic ice sheet, which has existed for hundreds of thousands of years, will within a decade completely vanish. Glaciers on every continent except Antarctica are in reduction on a rapid scale, and this will have increasing consequences before ocean level rise becomes even more than a factor than it already is (several small islands have become uninhabitable due to the few inches it has already risen) as sources of fresh water dry up when there is no immediate precipitation.

Hate to break it to you and the other climate change deniers, Dale, but millions of people did not commit fraud by getting battery-powered hair dryers to thaw out the arctic ice sheet. Its going due to predicted causes. It is not theory of something that may happen in the future, it is already a tiny fraction of what it once was. Across the tundras of North America and northern Asia, permafrost is thawing, triggering sinkholes and releasing even more carbon dioxide, methane and other gases.

I can't recall where the quote comes from, but its apt -- throw a frog into a pot of boiling water and it will try to jump out, but put a frog in a pot of room temperature water and gradually bring it to a boil, and the frog won't realize it is in peril until it is too late. That's the problem with global climate change, glaciers retreating over decades instead of an instantaneous explosion to prove the problem; its further exacerbated by the fact that climate change brings erratic weather patterns and it is impossible to determine whether any one storm/drought/other weather event is due to antropogenic climate change. Global Climate Change is as valid and proven a theory as the Theory of Gravity.
 
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