The CSA (Opinions)

[RebelYeller]

So then the confederacy had no staying power and it would have collapsed in a few years. I'll have to read over the confederate constitution, but I'm pretty sure there were some requirement that had to be met or a process to go through.

Yep you better read up on the south before you criticize the south

Both sides had prison camp atrocities, its just the south had more of them due to their disadvantaged status resulting from the Anaconda plan.

But whenever you guys have them there don't seem to be a excuse. See us do anaconda. Nope you don't.

Yet that would have be a de facto acknowledgement that states can withdraw from the union whenever they feel like it without even having to go through a formal process.

Yep thats the other reason we argued for keeping them north of the border.

Plus, need I re-iterate: The Confederacy attacked the Union at Ft. Sumpter first. No question about it. You fired the first formal shots here and instigated Bleeding Kansas.

Yep

Good.

Yep

Going back through the quote trail, your response doesn't seem to make any sense.

I was afraid you'd might realize this.

How did you not know we were a country when you join the union of states? If you could walk me through your reasoning I'd appreciate that as I have never heard that argument before.

We figured that since secession is not prohibited by the US constitution then we can assume that this part of the constitution:

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Source



lets us have it as a right.



And then we figured that if we have this right then we are not really a country. The matter seemed easy enough.

I would also like to point out I was born in Georgia and lived there for seven years in a suburb of Atlanta so I'm not a complete northerner. Of course I moved from the economic center of the Confederacy and the Jewel of the South to the first state that volunteered troops to help the Union, so its a bit strange.

What made you defect?

But the thing is I don't believe it was Northern Agression. The definition of agression sides with me.

Unfortunatly

 

[Ajidica]

Yep you better read up on the south before you criticize the south.

I can critize their governmental style all I want. I was unaware of a part of it and that is all. I understand enough to know the ultra-lose style of government won't work and will suffer the same problems the Delian League.
However:

The Confederate Constitution did not specifically include a provision allowing states to secede; the Preamble spoke of each state "acting in its sovereign and independent character" but also of the formation of a "permanent federal government". During the debates on drafting the Confederate Constitution, one proposal would have allowed states to secede from the Confederacy. The proposal was tabled with only the South Carolina delegates voting in favor of considering the motion.

Source: Wikipedia CSA page.

But whenever you guys have them there don't seem to be a excuse. See us do anaconda. Nope you don't.

The North still treated the prisoners on the whole better. No one really contests this.

Yep thats the other reason we argued for keeping them north of the border.

Huh?

We figured that since secession is not prohibited by the US constitution then we can assume that this part of the constitution:

lets us have it as a right.

I can't find the exact passage but the states entered the Union in a legal contract with no provisions for ending it. Although the 10th protects the rights, secession is not a right. As I said I can't find the exact passage, but the whole thing of being able to leave when you want has been debunked many times.

And then we figured that if we have this right then we are not really a country. The matter seemed easy enough.

If you enter into a union you are a country. You are creating ambiguity where none exists.

What made you defect?

My family moved up to Minnesota while I was a minor.

Unfortunatly

Life sucks then you die. You disagree with the English language?

 

[Bugfatty300]

The North still treated the prisoners on the whole better. No one really contests this.

Generally there was 12% mortality rate in the Union and 15% in the Confederacy. 26,000 died in Union camps and 30,000 died in Confederate camps. So really the Union really not that much better when it came to treatment of prisoners of war.

Then consider that, unlike the Confederacy, the Union had plenty of food, medicine and resources. It could have treated POWs extremely well yet choose to make their camps utter hellholes as worse as anything found in the South. Both sides treated their prisoners like subhumans and both sides could have done leaps and bounds to make their camps much better regardless of what resources were available. However it's pretty clear that whereas starvation was a fact of life for just about everyone in the South, starvation was a deliberate policy in the Union POW camps.

 

[RebelYeller]

I can critize their governmental style all I want. I was unaware of a part of it and that is all. I understand enough to know the ultra-lose style of government won't work and will suffer the same problems the Delian League.

Its not suppposed to work. If it works too well it will figure out how to keep states in.

Originally Posted by wikipeidia:
The Confederate Constitution did not specifically include a provision allowing states to secede; the Preamble spoke of each state "acting in its sovereign and independent character" but also of the formation of a "permanent federal government". During the debates on drafting the Confederate Constitution, one proposal would have allowed states to secede from the Confederacy. The proposal was tabled with only the South Carolina delegates voting in favor of considering the motion.

So, the US constitution did not have a right to secede and that did not stop our states from leaving.

The North still treated the prisoners on the whole better. No one really contests this.

No better northen prisons have shown up yet. Nope they have not.

Huh?

If your armies and navies stay up north of a certain line then nobody would gotton hurt or killed and no states loses their rights. Thats what I meant. What part did you not understand?

I can't find the exact passage but the states entered the Union in a legal contract with no provisions for ending it. Although the 10th protects the rights, secession is not a right. As I said I can't find the exact passage, but the whole thing of being able to leave when you want has been debunked many times.

Yep

If you enter into a union you are a country. You are creating ambiguity where none exists.

But where I would like it to exist.

My family moved up to Minnesota while I was a minor.

Too bad.

Life sucks then you die. You disagree with the English language?

I disagree with the version spoken in New York.

 

[Dachs]

As far as I am concerned, it is not an argument. Certain traitors falsely believed that they could misinterpret federal laws such that they could organize states to "secede" from the Union. Their misguided beliefs in defense of, among other things, protectionist trade policy and human bondage helped to spark a civil conflict that resulted in the deaths of over half a million Americans. These traitors ultimately failed in their revolt, their legal ideas have been comprehensively rejected by the American legal community, their exploitative social structure has been utterly and irrevocably destroyed, and federal power has been increased to the extent that another massacre of in excess of half a million American citizens by their fellows is no longer probable.

The whole thing was settled in the closing centuries of the last millennium, and the only persons who continue to have any sort of faith in the traitor cause are either appropriating its anti-federal tenets for their own, more modern reasons, or are hopeless romantics in the mold of those who worship the medieval "ideal" of knightly chivalry or Roman militaristic nationalism. Neither group has any particular relevance to modern life, yet both are vocal minorities in media which permit them an outlet.

So, the US constitution did not have a right to secede and that did not stop our states from leaving.

Sure it did. All of the states that hosted assemblies of traitors claiming to have the authority to secede from the United States in 1860-1 remain within the Union. I'd say the federal government did a damned good job of "stopping [the] states from leaving".

If your armies and navies stay up north of a certain line then nobody would gotton hurt or killed and no states loses their rights.

Federal armies and navies were responding to the attempted grand larceny and misappropriation of federal property by certain organized gangs in the southern states.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Generally there was 12% mortality rate in the Union and 15% in the Confederacy. 26,000 died in Union camps and 30,000 died in Confederate camps. So really the Union really not that much better when it came to treatment of prisoners of war.

Where do you get these statistics from? I've never heard the Union had anything which even approached the atrocities committed at Andersonville.

However it's pretty clear that whereas starvation was a fact of life for just about everyone in the South, starvation was a deliberate policy in the Union POW camps.

Once again, citation please.

 

[Dida]

1. China hates the US, as does the Middle East. Also, the world would fall into socialism and authoritarianism even more without the Americans keeping it in check. They're not doing a good job though.

If we break up into 50 states, the US will cease to exist, and hence neither China nor the Middle East will hate us. The world order as we know it will be drastically altered, but it will probably not fall into socialism or authoritarianism.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Where do you get these statistics from? I've never heard the Union had anything which even approached the atrocities committed at Andersonville.

Here is a site with the statistics I stated:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p137_Weber.html

The best and most reliable estimate available seems to be the one provided by Adjutant General F.C. Ainsworth in 1903 to the eminent historian James F. Rhodes. The Chief of the Record and Pension Office stated that the best information obtainable from both Union and Confederate records showed that the North held 214 865 Southern soldiers, of whom 25 976 died in captivity, while the South held 193 743 Union men, of whom 30 218 died in captivity. Rhodes concluded that slightly over 12 percent of the prisoners held by the Union perished, while 15.5 percent died in Southern camps. But Rhodes felt that given the superior hospitals medicines, and abudance of food, mortality in the Northern prisons should have been lower.

Camp Douglas

Camp Douglas was a Union training camp and later prisoner-of-war camp in Chicago, Illinois, USA, during the American Civil War .... Eventually, over 26,000 Confederate soldiers passed through the prison camp, which eventually came to be known as the North's "Andersonville" for its inhumane conditions .... It is estimated that from 1862–1865, more than 6,000 Confederate prisoners died from disease, starvation, and the bitter cold winters (although as many as 1,500 were reported as "unaccounted" for) ... Nobody was ever held accountable for the conditions and actions at Camp Douglas, in fact the only Union general to gain the rank without seeing combat was an overseer of Camp Douglas.

Elmira Prison

By far the most horrendous Northern camp was Elmira, located in New York a few miles from the Pennsylvania line. Some 9000 prisoners were confined to a camp meant to hold only 5,000.

Two observation towers were erected right outside the prison walls. For 15 cents, spectators could watch the wretched prisoners within the compound. When winter struck Elmira in late 1864, prisoners lacking blankets and clad in rags collapsed in droves from exposure. By early December, half-naked men stood ankle-deep in show to answer the morning roll call ... Repeated requests for badly needed medicines were ignored by officials in Washington. The pathetically equipped hospital lacked beds, equipment and personnel. By late December 1864, at least 70 men were lying on bare hospital floors and another 200 diseased and dying men lay in the regular prison quarters, contaminating their healthier comrades ... In February 1865, the camp held 8996 prisoners, of whom 1398 were sick and 426 died. In March an average of 16 prisoners were dying each day. Of a total of 12 123 soldiers imprisoned at Elmira during its one year existence, 2963 died, or about 25 percent. The monthly death rate, however, topped the one at Andersonville.

Elmira Prison (Union):

3,000 deaths out of 12,000 prisoners = 25% overall mortality rate

Camp Douglas (Union):

6,000 deaths out of 26,000 prisoners = 23% overall mortality rate.

Andersonville (CSA):

13,000 deaths out of 45,000 prisoners = 28% overall mortality rate.

Once again, citation please.

Camp Douglas

According to the History Channel documentary ... During Colonel B.J. Sweet's command of Camp Douglas, he used reduced food rations — removing vegetables and decreasing the 3oz daily meat portions — to control the prison population and reduce escape attempt numbers. The reduced rations increased instances of diseases such as scurvy and helped to increase mortality rates ... (reference: 80 Acres of Hell).

 

[Theige]

So Andersonville was indeed the worst POW prison during the Civil War

 

[Bugfatty300]

So Andersonville was indeed the worst POW prison during the Civil War

Yes but Formaldehyde said he wasn't aware of any Northern prisons that "even approached the atrocities committed at Andersonville." Camp Douglas and Elmira are two examples.

Interestingly enough the overall mortality for Confederate soldiers in the entire war was 26%. So conditions in any prison camp couldn't have been much more deadly than simply serving in the Confederate forces.

 

[Arakhor]

If we break up into 50 states, the US will cease to exist, and hence neither China nor the Middle East will hate us. The world order as we know it will be drastically altered, but it will probably not fall into socialism or authoritarianism.

Considering that Europe is already fiercely in the iniquitous grip of socialism as it is, I don't see the mighty USA changing that in any way.

Also, why do people keep referencing their "God-given" rights to anything, especially when referring to the US Constitution, which (as far as I know) specifically divorces the church from the state?

 

[Luckymoose]

You sir, do not understand how Contract Law works. If one party fails to meet the terms of the contract, that does not void the contract. Nor is one party allowed to unilaterally withdraw from a contract, unless it was illegal in the first place (which is to say there was no contract).

Analogy fail.

I'm quite sure, having gone through the processes, that you can infact have the contract /lease voided. Don't be a dick. K Thanks.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Considering that Europe is already fiercely in the iniquitous grip of socialism as it is, I don't see the mighty USA changing that in any way.

Also, why do people keep referencing their "God-given" rights to anything, especially when referring to the US Constitution, which (as far as I know) specifically divorces the church from the state?

The United States constitution does indeed divorce the church from the state, with good reason, though the constitution was based on ideals that the authors considered to be based on good, righteous Christian thought, that if not then at least ought to have been endowed by God.

As far as socialism and communism goes, hopefully some day the American public will learn the difference between the liberal policies of Europe and arguably of the current administration and the truly communist Marxism that was the law of the land in Soviet Russia. Such hope may be horribly misplaced, however, as we are talking about Americans. I know I haven't learned the difference

 

[Arakhor]

I watched enough US legal dramas to hear all the witnesses constantly end on "so help me God", which really doesn't sound very secular to me

Come for a few days to Europe then - a hard-line conservative country like ours (not Sweden or Holland for a first-timer!) - and if you don't start frothing at the mouth at all the SIN, INIQUITY and SOCIALISM, then you'll soon learn the difference

 

[cav scout]

Hope this helps Arakhor:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

 

[Arakhor]

Thanks, Cav_scout. It's just a shame that firearms and suchlike specifically aren't called out as God's gifts to His favoured (?) nation.

 

[Lord of Elves]

I watched enough US legal dramas to hear all the witnesses constantly end on "so help me God", which really doesn't sound very secular to me

Come for a few days to Europe then - a hard-line conservative country like ours (not Sweden or Holland for a first-timer!) - and if you don't start frothing at the mouth at all the SIN, INIQUITY and SOCIALISM, then you'll soon learn the difference

Don't they still do that in the Isles and most of the Dominions, or have you moved on from that dreadful Christianity affair?

Out of curiosity, might you be a Tory or a Labour(Labourist... Labour-supporter?)?

 

[cav scout]

Thanks, Cav_scout. It's just a shame that firearms and suchlike specifically aren't called out as God's gifts to His favoured (?) nation.

Ah you must have caught my slip in citing the wrong Amendment # in my quote . Fixed it right away though.

And I thought Israel was God's favored nation.

 

[Arakhor]

I actually have no idea, but I don't think we do

Tory? How dare you sir! I'm a Green/Liberal Democrat - LibDem on Europe and other social issues, Green on health and the environment, which (as I've said before) makes me somewhat more left-wing than many British voters. And yes, we do still have our ghastly right-wing nut-jobs out there, the most polite of whom are UKIP.

Israel was Jehovah's favoured nation. Everyone knows that the British Empire was the favoured of the Lord God, as the sun had too much respect to set upon the pink lands of the world

 

[cardgame]

"God is on the side of the winners"

USA #1

therefore, we can conclude that _____________