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The Deity Challenge Lineup - Game # 1 - The Zulus

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by DingleBirdy, Jun 20, 2014.

  1. Dehli

    Dehli Chieftain

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    Nice job guys. Olodune, how you got that empire looking so good early is great. Nice job hicks. Do you fight more than one war at at time? peddroelm, this is what I've been looking for. I can read about it til the cows come home but seeing it done is the way I learn.
     
  2. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    To Olodune and DingleBirdy


    Spoiler :
    I know I keep posting but Im having fun and the new games keep rolling in so I need to make a quick comment.

    Very nice Liberty start Olodune I can see it is not going to be much of a problem for you to get this rolling! Is your religion Christian? It is spreading like wildfire already, if that is yours?! I love it how at turn 100 you have more of a worker force than military, ofcourse I see your production is really good and you can whip up some troops in no time.

    Also I want to thank DingleBirdy one more time. I really like the simple and basic spreadsheet with the win times and comments. In a world that is so high tech and cell phone crazy it is refreshing to see a more simplistic approach. Keep up the good work!
     
  3. Olodune

    Olodune Emperor GOTM Staff

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    @Fluphen
    Spoiler :

    That's the English religion. I couldn't even found a Pantheon. By the time I had 30 faith (~t51) Pantheons were finished.

    Liz has Mosques and Cathedrals so I'll have an adequate faith dump for now.
     
  4. hicks53081

    hicks53081 Chieftain

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    I would loved to have fought more than one war at a time, but my happiness was teetering the entire game. The last screen shot is misleading about my happiness. It wasn't until I was heading to fight Dido that I adopted protectionism (2+ happiness for each lux) which caused my happiness to jump through the roof. I had a massive reserve army that could have started fighting earlier, but I was getting whales and gold through Dido, and I couldn't afford to lose those.
     
  5. RedRover57

    RedRover57 Emperor

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    I haven't had time to play the game more than a few turns here and there, but I was able to get things back into control by converting to Order, which erased +27 of my unhappiness. There is still a bit of an issue with ideology pressure however, as both Babylon and Shoshone have now taken Freedom, so that added to the large amount of pressure from Dido's Autocracy is a pain. I was finally able to make peace with Shoshone after taking their city next to my territory. I was also able to make peace with England after taking a city that they took previously from Siam (and I sold it back to Siam) and also taking Wellington (which England captured with a large fleet that they apparently brought all the way around the continent), which gives me more oil, aluminum and a much needed coastal city for trade routes. I am beelining for Plastics (later than I would like) and have 5 GS saved up to bulb after research labs are built. This should vault me into the tech lead (currently only 2 techs behind the leader). Then I can deal with Dido. Science victory would be easy from here, but boring.
     
  6. Olodune

    Olodune Emperor GOTM Staff

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    t150, update. Still building, but war is looming ...
    Spoiler :


    I am relatively happy with the initial land grab, am getting 4 luxes in trade, and am receiving more caravans than I've had before, so why fight early? (Hey Mr. Shaka, I always knew you were a peaceful trader at heart, right? )



    I did have a moment where the game nearly fell apart. Washington made peace with Dido and immediately I see several Minutemen standing on my boarder ... luckily it looks like a "peaceful" march to foreign lands. It was a good reminder that a DoW from my best friend Washington would be the most likely way to lose this game. That border is large. Maybe I should at least pretend to fortify it. *Clicks on Nobambian Walls*



    Sometimes the AI is strange. I see a partially built Machu Picchu in New York. But it's late in the game ... well the consolation cash would be nice. Umm, t146 Machu Picchu :lol:



    France is the major long term threat this game. Napoleon has killed the Shoshone, captured Babylon, and is leading straight across the demo board. It is time to do something about that. I'll have Dynamite at t152 + several Impis. Also, Valetta may have been kindly training some XBs for me - so I might have 3 of those ... with Logistics & Range :mischief:

    Hopefully, it won't be a very fair fight.


     
  7. Olodune

    Olodune Emperor GOTM Staff

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    Somehow I missed this little dagger into my warmongering heart. Pfft, I tell you. :p
    Spoiler :

    That is barely, just barely, true. I do have 8 workers (and I think I deleted one).

    My t100 military was not totally composed of used tissues: 4 composites, 2 Impi with full Buffalo promos (with another popping next turn), AND a general, who could plant a defensive citadel if needed.
    (Most of these are engaged with Valletta).

    I also built two walls on the most dangerous border to buy time to regroup, if needed. While it might not make the AI cower in fear it was good enough for 6th overall.
     
  8. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    @Olodune

    Spoiler :

    If you went commerce you could also get range 5 lancers with free pillage to go with the rest - tho it would take a few turns of pillaging to pay back the gold cost .. (buy mercenaries upgrade to lancer) (on second thought that crazy science probably means rationalism)

    WOW T152 Arty - would've loved a full LP on that .. And Paris in range for multiple artillery shots from your own territory - did he wonder spam a bit ?

    Trouble with going crazy 5 city in the middle of the map like that is in my experience you get a lot of early DOWs in return . Somehow you managed to keep the peace but I'm not sure that is always an option ..
     
  9. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    DV @ 180
    That's to save the fellow lurkers from navigating through a wall of text.

    Apparently there's life after Paris so I decided to paly hide & seek with Pocahontas - he's hiding behind the GW and due to bad scouting I'm seeking quite a few things not not very actively as it's hot and this leopard skin cock-piece isn't most comfortable one. Washy was hammering Nappy into oblivion so I placed few labour unionist blocking his entrance to Orleans with surprising success. Rammy is less effective against Lizzy and Nebby is buildding Xbows like there's no tomorrow. That isn't too far from the truth but I''ll wait for few more turns before DoWing. My war with Lizzy isn't advancing anywhere unless her CS allies start bothering me.

    T143 WC by me which was bit of a surprise but I probably go few brownie points for suggesting that WF would be cool in near future. Taking Moson Kahni two turns later was less widely appreciated. Rammy wanted 30% discount on everything and even Washy wasn't too keen on that saying that I was getting some global attention with liberation missions - I thought there was no such thing as bad publicity.
    Sold two Poca's cities Washy to keep'em hugging each other which slightly backfired as one was razed by a CS and Nappy spreaded the metric system to the other one.

    DoWed Nebby ~T150 after which Rammy the Ineffective Slack denounced me and Wasshington backstabbed just in time before our DoF ran out. Obviously I returned the favour to Washy and he immediately popped the question - I was a bit worried that this might be a proposal but to my relief it was just a start of war. I was decently prepared for this but some of my troops were positioned unfortunately and my preemptive road-building near his capital wasn't complete and a general reserved for a citadel #2 was still on the wrong side of Paris.

    Quickly killed his left-over units near Paris, took closest city, razed it, placed two citadels near Washington like a hungry IRS bear to cut down his income. The Neddy war was done more in a leisure manner - few pot shot here & there but the lack of 3-range units made it a stalemate - not that I had much of objections sunbathing in the trenches. As soon as I got few longer arms of the Zulu law on site Babylon started to go down. His schools produced capable engineers in an impressive rate so I curiously waited for few turns and got LToP & Globe T as bonuses on T160.

    I also made peace with Lizzy and got Michael York's older bother the city of York in return. I wasn't into slavery or puppeteering so I swapped that for mushrooms with Rammy to keep the lazy bastards fighting. No success on that front so Rammy got curious about my archery team's hangaround members by his border. Since we couldn't agree in civil manner that I should get his cities we decided to have an honest duel. I was fine with that as long as I was allowed to win and that seemed likely.

    Hit industrial T164 by bulbing which helped as unlike in my original plan trebuchets got one-shotted by American cities and with just 2 Xbows nearby the war was rapidly escalating into mutual dislike between us. After I beat the Americans in Washingtonball 2-1 I got half a dozen wonders with no serious hit on my happiness on T170. I was in no hurry to make peace with him as he wasn't much of a threat anyway. Few troops were sent to Paris in case the Corsican Shorty had any vile ideas.

    The Last few turns were spent lazy shooting some elephants, taking York to be able bomb some land near London and swarming the city. Few lost units here & there but nothing serious so Sukhotai T177 and London as last one on T180.

    General thoughts - Shaka+salt+Pangaea isn't even funny. I was nowhere as bored as I expected but I just don't like Pangaea. AI didn't have a clue what might be handy in terms on national success which really isn't a novelty.
    Most surprising thing was the lack of happiness problems even without CSs allies/friends. In past with Liberty that's been an obstacle but this was eased by fact that I didn't take many crappy cities in the first place. Money income was way better than expected nor did I much use it apart from upgrades.
    Managed a pantheon but English missionaries popped on my territory right after T40 so I gave up the idea of own religion. 1 Pagoda, 1 Uni & 2 Monasteries was what I got out of it.
    Full Liberty & then left side of honor - without culture one is saved from the dilemma of choosing between multiple good policies.

    As the start was what is was I made few rules for myself partly because the AI needs all the help it can but mainly to amuse myself during the game. So few NOs in the game

    - wonders/nationals, apart from NC which I regretted as soon as it was build
    - bought/build workers - all were stolen at some point + the one from Liberty
    - internal trade routes
    - CS quests fullfilled, apart from one accidental one when I got my salt back. Not a penny given to CSs either so no friends/allies
    - barb camps cleared = 0
    - annexed cities, 4 own cities - others puppets or razed
    - no stolen techs though I almost accidentally screwed this up but luckily my spy was killed
    - pillage & repair is a no go for me anyway

    Nowhere near as bad as I expected so thanks for resurrecting the concept. Pretty much std lazy man's game for me - I'm just not cut (at least not anymore) for speedy games - I prefer minimizing the troop movement as it's still appalling.
    I also got rid of the UI mod in the middle of the game as it was more annoying than helpful. The latter pics are also on lower reso as dropped the game's video quality to have some decency in turn times.



    Spoiler :











     
  10. Aibeit

    Aibeit Chieftain

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    I finished on turn 389 (I think). I am fine with being excluded from the spreadsheet for extreme stupidity and not keeping the Victory Screenshot :goodjob:
     
  11. Olodune

    Olodune Emperor GOTM Staff

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    @peddroelm

    Spoiler :

    It's a low culture game for me (no cultural CS found yet, no pantheon, lost Oracle early, etc) so social policies are pretty bare bones: Full Liberty -> Tradition Opener -> Rationalism Opener. I would like Secularism, but getting more happiness is even more important. At t150 we've just voted on the World's Fair. Since it is the only congress proposal (Poc's died along with his civilization), it should pass. That means Monarchy is reachable very soon, and probably required if I want to hold Paris. Protectionism would be better, but there are fewer stepping stones along the way and I can't get there before Ideologies, anyways.

    Upgraded Landsknecht would be lovely, but I think Impi can play a similar pillaging role.

    That's a long answer to say: Commerce would be great, Going further into Tradition is better. For more relaxed Immortal/Deity games, in terms of time pressure to make a move, I am a big fan of Commerce.


    With this start I don't think t152 Arty is that crazy. I think I've seen Moriarte do similar from much worse starts. Getting to Arty quickly is mostly based on what happens in t50 -> t100, and my t100 is very similar to other positions here -- other than Edu vs. Machinery. No RAs. Just a Liberty Acad + a GS Bulb + Oxford. Caravans add roughly 10% to my total beakers from t30 onwards. Liberty is competitive with Tradition, even for building, if the land is rich enough. This is very rich land. With my initial cities I have:

    - 5 dyes
    - 3 salt
    - 2 sugar
    - 1 marble
    - 1 truffle
    - numerous horses (10 maybe?).
    - 6 iron
    - 1 spice (citadel bombed from Valletta)

    In terms of wonders I think Paris has: Pisa, Alhambra, Glib, Hagia Sophia. Not bad, but no happiness.

    Yes, well there is only so much we can control in this start. I would much prefer settling safely with my back to the sea, but I don't see that as an option here. :lol:

    Why does building 5 instead of 3 cities increase DoW likelihood? I only got a "please don't expand in our direction" warning from Pocatello of all people. I guess there were a few "Too many cities" diplo hits, but that is not a strong demerit. As you well know, the early way to avoid war (as much as possible) include:

    - No embassies for Nap/Dido. No way. (I think this is especially effective for Dido here).
    - Early caravans to the AI. DoFs are very likely to follow. I got them from Siam and America early, possibly because of these.
    - Free lunch. Wash asked for an early loan; I am more than happy to comply.
    - Bribes. I consider Napoleon to be a 9/10 on the "dangerous" list for early/mid-game DoWs. Only Shaka himself is a 10. So with a greedy opening the best option is to keep Nappy busy as early and often as possible. I used my 2nd salt and 2GPT for the first war bribe on t41. That means he was already at war when I placed the last two cities in his face. He is still a DoW threat, but his troops are elsewhere. One advantage of building 5 cities is that losing one is not the end of my game.


    I've watched the first hour or so of your, highly enjoyable, LP :D

    Some scattered thoughts, not at all intended to be critical of your excellent play ;) (Well except for double moving units into the Fog of War very early in the game. But you know better :goodjob: )

    1) I would have absolutely have taken the early gold hit to get Nappy busy, even with the ~12 GPT. You left our favorite pint sized Emperor to his own devices to ~t80. Living dangerously, I say.

    2) Washington asked for 87 Gold, why not give it to him for a solid +Diplo modifier? You'll get it right back, anyways ;) Keeping Washington happy and/or at war is the 2nd most important diplo manoeuvre required for the early game, I think.

    3) You attacked Valletta, who was under the Protection of 2-3 civs at the time. Brave man. After double worker stealing this will have a pretty large impact on your diplomatic standings, no? I think it would be better to either

    -) declare early if there is no protection and you know beforehand that Valletta is your XP farm

    -) find another target. Lhasa, Wellington, and Budapest are possible, if slightly inconvenient options ...

    I don't know if avoiding the above would prevent the Siamese DoW, but I think it would reduce the chances of that happening.

    4) Probably just a preference, but rather than go for 7 CBs why not 5CBs + a couple Spears? I find melee units with cover promos make XP farming more efficient. A fortified spear in rough terrain will also act much like walls in case of a DoW -- it will buy a little time to get your main army into position.
     
  12. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Well... of course! I could ask you if you had other suggestions, but I won't. It's PG rated forum, yes? :D


    The good news, it seems like I managed to remove the problem. The bad news, I accidentally deleted my entire Civ folder with all the screenies, saves, hof db and such from last two years give or take. :think:
     
  13. Olodune

    Olodune Emperor GOTM Staff

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    t252, SV (Shaka goes to Space)

    Spoiler :

    As I'd hoped, fast artillery do not a fair fight make. Napoleon did capture the GW, however, so progress is a little slow. I'm not very impressed with Impis. They attack, do a lot of damage, and then just die. I should have brought Cavalry (or Knights, since I'm out of gold). Yes, I'm aware it's 60 turns outside Impi's prime.



    I pushed all the way through to the old Shoshone lands to make sure there would be no French uprisings down the line. I'll end up taking getting Babylon in the peace deal and selling it to the Siamese, since I don't have the happiness to hold it.



    At this point I had a bit of a mid-game crisis of directionlessness. I'm leading in all the key demos (food, hammers, science) and have the most capable army. I could just churn out artillery until the continent is clear, but, happiness is going to be a real pain. Also, pushing up the narrow Carthaginian peninsula could be un-fun. I could rush bombers, which I do enjoy, but use all too often. I'll start by building Brandenburg (for super air units) and Eiffel (for Ideology defense)...

    After toying with several ideas I actually decided to push for space. I like the position I'm in. Diplomacy is solid, and I want to see if the French conquest actually contributes to the space race (unlikely as that is ... ) It's too bad I burned Oxford already + a GS on a military tech. :lol: I also want to redeem my SV end game after GotM 88. It's a plan.

    The Zulu Kingdom at peak beakers, starting on Apollo and Hubble. Happy with progress so far.



    The end came together nicely this time, although I fell a few turns short of a 3rd Faith based Scientist.



    This was my first game as Shaka, and I mostly ignored what makes him special. Enjoyed it, however.
     
  14. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    Alright i finally decided to enter this game but not without checking spoilers. I did survey very fast and didn't see much about ressources and luxs around excepted capital(missed the 6 iron tile for proof :)).

    Since that i have been into Tradition a lot more than Liberty lately and even got success in similar games without Lib i didn't want to screw everything and stickied with Tradition. It will be also a good way to compare unusual strats.

    My special approach consists into stealing at least 2 workers(1 from cs and AI) and rush buy a granary in 2nd city. Then focus on archers until construction. Tradition until Monarchy and maybe +food in capital then Honor.

    Stole a worker from Valetta and Nabu. Everything went well for the first 40 turns and suddenly France attacked me around the turn 42. He throwed 3-4 warriors, 3 archers and a cat. Most of my units where in 2nd city and didn't expect at all a visit so early from Nappy...but i killed his melee units in time.

    Spoiler :


    It was my turn to visit his capital. Piece of cake when AI has unit to defend. Had bribed Pocatello against France as well. Unhappiness was pretty high but that's because a total of 4 unique luxs weren't connected yet(traded my unique dye to Poc).

    Spoiler :


    And now it was time for Pocatello to die. He killed 2 or 3 CBs into this thougher war because he built the Great Wall. I almost decided to burn a gg for a citadel but i didn't. The capital is mine and got some nice wonders like Great Wall, HG and GL.

    Spoiler :


    I started the NC for 3 turns...the switched for spearman. Thing is that i need units before reaching Civil Service and science is high enough i think. Probably that some next cities will have a university to accelerate for Xbows later. Will have to check with civ i need to take care next(thoughts?) Culture is slow(no monuments from cities taken!) unfortunately i will try Oracle in 2nd city i guess and rush buy from capital with Ikanda built.

    I didn't do some XP farm excepted on AI civs :p
     
  15. DingleBirdy

    DingleBirdy Chieftain

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    Thanks a lot. I appreciate that.
     
  16. DingleBirdy

    DingleBirdy Chieftain

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    I just read your update, Tabarnak. Geeze..I really want to see how your game goes. That terrain getting to Paris was a pain and I am blown away you were able to get Paris and Moson Kahni eliminated by turn 75. Would be interesting to see the details behind it all.
     
  17. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    Me too :) .. My game is on pause - had guests for a few days - but I'll get it done .
     
  18. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    Turn 104 update:

    After making peace with the Shoshones i retreated immediately near my capital. On turn 76 i already been DoWed by Elizabeth and Dido the 2 farthest civs. They were blocked by neighbors and the threat was inexistent. I've just declared war to Siam because it's simply the best war path available. The idea is to turn left again into Liz and finish the Babs when returning. I also annexed Moson Kahni and Paris when possible.

    Captured Siam's cap fairly easily using Impis to clear the path for CBs and even bombard city too.

    Spoiler :


    The next turns have been interesting...lost Oracle by 2 turns but managed to build the Statue of Zeus. Liz offered me peace in return of 29 gpt that i refused. I bribed Washington earlier to attack Dido and he did almost nothing...he probably lost a couple of units but that's all. He made peace a bit later and returned his army into me.

    So now i'm at war with Liz and Wash and i'm trading with Babs and France to try to delay other backstabs(France is particulary annoying he doesn't stop putting more cities around Paris). I have approx. 10 Impis and 7-8 CBs but they are dispersed a bit. I'm still beating classical units around me so it seems that the AI don't tech very fast.

    When i will secure the north part(after Liz and Babs) i will push all my army into Washington and Dido.

    Nice things:

    -allied 2 merc. cs(1 with a gm from Paris and a barb camp)
    -Impis are op
    -4 CBs are very close of getting the +1 range promo
    -Leading demographics
    -Cash flow is great

    Bad things:

    -Culture is slow
    -Lost Oracle
    -Rebuilt many caravans
    -Put some gold into failed bribes
    -France is surrounding Paris with many cities

    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :


    Spoiler :
     
  19. glory7

    glory7 King

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    @Tabarnak

    This is a very interesting approach. 3 caps before t100.. nice.

    Getting GW certainly helps a lot in this early conquest game, as all AIs will DoW you (or you DoW them) you have to leave some defense units at the back line, and with GW you can put more units at the front line.

    Will be waiting for your next update.
     
  20. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    Indeed, though I was more drooling over the 12 happiness @T75 with 4 puppets. My limited imagination practically prevented me from even trying anything like that as I was preparing myself for a much longer game. The positioning of American & French settlements had a minor impact.

    Reasons why I started with the wars with Dido instead of someone were that she's one guaranteed to backstab even without a proper opportunity and she was the only one not generally liked nor befriended with anyone. A small obvious bonus geography as taking cities didn't really open up new front for anyone to attack me.

    Also, no question that the Impi is OP but I'd also say that a T10 worker is seriously OP for a player and 4 free workers around T30 is basically an I WIN button hence it might make some sense to limit in some way the stealing of workers in some future challenges.
     

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