adhiraj.bose
Deity
I am not sure if Civ4 would provide for such a distinction as urban-rural population. It could just be that cities would count as administrative centers for predominantly rural provinces.
The Democratic Caliphate.
- Thread starter Sanguivorant
- Start date
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
Hooray! Take that plebs!
Indeed you have a point. I don't know if we can reach a form of analyzis to tell which are the criteria to account urban population in comparison to non-urban population.
If we take into consideration Cottages and their evolutions, Baghdad (Babil has changed name to Baghdad folks, this will be done ingame as soon as the term is played) would have a big urban population because it is currently working 6 cottage-like improvements (1 Cottage, 2 Hamlets and 3 Villages).
But we should also presume that people assigned to water tiles should be based on the city itself rather then another land tile (and obviously they aren't sea-people living in the water tile itself, like some sentient fishpeople on some islands in the pacific that we heard about long ago
). So these should also be accounted as urban population because they should be living in the city tile itself.The most problematic point would be the exact number of population (not pop points). Fo each pop point the number of people in the city and its vicinity increases exponentially, so it'll be really hard to normalize this value for comparison. E.g. Al-Quds is a 11-pop city and has 1,331,000 population which is almost the double of the 729,000 population that As-Sur has and As-Sur is a 9-pop city.
Let's try something, let's Compare Baghdad and Al-Quds:
Spoiler :
Baghdad
Al-Quds
1,000,000 Population 1,331,000 Population
1 used Cottage 0 used Cottages
2 used Hamlets 2 used Hamlets
3 used Villages 0 used Villages
0 used Water Tiles 6 used Water Tiles
If we consider all other tiles to have non-urban people (farms, oasis, mines, forests, quarries, plantations), then Baghdad has 6 urban pop-points and Al-Quds has 8 urban pop-points.
But Villages should have more people then Hamlets, and those more then Cottages, and maybe the population living in the capital working a water tile should be less then the people living in a Cottage tile. Specialists could have the same weight as Water Tiles. If we transform these into values we could use:
Spoiler :
Another factor I would like to call in is a 10% of all pop-points assigned to non-urban areas to be accounted as urban pop. This would represent people living in the city itself that are related to what is done in the non-urban tiles (merchants, distributors, politics, all their personal staffs, etc.).
Then we sum all pop-points (with their values, non-urban will all account as 1.00) and divide urban/non-urban accordingly from the total population value. Then we get 10% of non-urban and throw into urban. Let's try this out:
Baghdad
Al-Quds
4 Non-Urban Tiles Used 3 Non-Urban Tiles Used
10.25 Urban Factor 9.00 Urban Factor
71.92% Urban Pop 75% Urban Pop
10% of Non-Urban = 28,080 10% of Non-Urban = 33,275
747,280 Urban Population 1,031,525 Urban Population
Spoiler :
So Al-Quds has yet more urban population then Baghdad, and I would presume more then any other city in the Caliphate (because I believe Baghdad was the only that could possibly compete with Al-Quds for its extensive cottage-like vicinity).
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
Ha, I knew it!
adhiraj.bose
Deity
This was an interesting calculation. Though I personally have always considered water tiles being worked meaning fishing communities or coastal villages. Not necessarily urban population. That of course depends on the situation.
I could only imagine poeple setting sail from the city tile itself, or maybe a cottage-like coastal tile. If the city wasn't coastal then I agree it should come from a different tile. It isn't like the fishermen share a farm tile with farmers so they can live near where they fish. Not almost in the Renaissance at least.
But I'm all ears for different approaches.
adhiraj.bose
Deity
Considering what you have just said, I would say only cities with harbors would get an urban fishermen population, cities which don't have a harbor wouldn't have this advantage, rather then it would depend on coastal villages for their fishing needs.
Alternatively, it could be that the fishermen actually live in villages on the outskirts of the cities but come to the harbor or market to sell their goods. The markets of Goa are like that.
Realistically speaking, a 75% rate of urbanization under medieval conditions feels like its too much. A large urban population is acceptable though, Angkor had a population of a million at its peak for instance.
Alternatively, it could be that the fishermen actually live in villages on the outskirts of the cities but come to the harbor or market to sell their goods. The markets of Goa are like that.
Realistically speaking, a 75% rate of urbanization under medieval conditions feels like its too much. A large urban population is acceptable though, Angkor had a population of a million at its peak for instance.
Yeah this makes sense. A period of time that measures the game state of DoC may be enough to encompass at least one year of a person's life, and those fishermen are probably going back and forth to sell their goods.
So I'll propose 2 new factors, let's see if they can bring more balance:
Each Water Tile has a 0.5 weight. This actually means that we are only accounting 50% of the pop as urban.
Now if the city that controls this tile has a Harbor, then all that city's water tiles would have a factor of 0.75 (3 in 4), so 3 fourths of the people are considered urban.
Also I think 10% may have been too much. I did Al-Iskandariya and realized 10% of the non-urban meant +5% to the total urban population in comparison to the non-urban. I think this is too many people that are solely related to the enterprises scattered in the countryside. I'll try 5% now.
Let's recalc Everything:
Baghdad
Maybe this value is better indeed. Still Sham is our middle center. There is plenty of everything in Sham, gold, science, culture, commerce, espionage. It should be a highly urbanized place.
Let's see Al-Iskandariya(10), a city closer to normality:
1,000,000 Population
0 Used Cottage-Like Improvements
4 Used Water Tiles
2 Specialists
So this means
4 Non-Urban Tiles Used
5.00 Urban Pop Factor
55.56% Urban Pop
5% of Non-Urban = 22,222
577,778 Urban Population
Let's try Makkah(11) too:
1,331,000 Population
0 Used Cottage-Like Improvements
5 Used Water Tiles
3 Specialists
So:
3 Non-Urban Tiles Used
6.75 Urban Pop Factor
69.23% Urban Pop
5% of Non-Urban = 20,477
941,938 Urban Population
I'm impressed by the result of Makkah, and I was thinking Baghdad was closer to Al-Quds. For now these are our most Urbanized Cities: Al-Quds in 1st and Makkah in 2nd. I'll add this award to the next report.
Any reinterpretation of my calcs are welcome, so please share your opinion if you think something could be more appropriate then what I'm using.
We are almost creating a type of Arab Games, but instead of playing it with athletes or something else, we compare each others' stats
So I'll propose 2 new factors, let's see if they can bring more balance:
Each Water Tile has a 0.5 weight. This actually means that we are only accounting 50% of the pop as urban.
Now if the city that controls this tile has a Harbor, then all that city's water tiles would have a factor of 0.75 (3 in 4), so 3 fourths of the people are considered urban.
Also I think 10% may have been too much. I did Al-Iskandariya and realized 10% of the non-urban meant +5% to the total urban population in comparison to the non-urban. I think this is too many people that are solely related to the enterprises scattered in the countryside. I'll try 5% now.
Let's recalc Everything:
Baghdad
Al-Quds
4 Non-Urban Tiles Used 3 Non-Urban Tiles Used
10.25 Urban Factor 7.50 Urban Factor
71.92% Urban Pop 71.43% Urban Pop
5% of Non-Urban = 14,040 5% of Non-Urban = 19,014
733,240 Urban Population 969,728 Urban Population
Maybe this value is better indeed. Still Sham is our middle center. There is plenty of everything in Sham, gold, science, culture, commerce, espionage. It should be a highly urbanized place.
Let's see Al-Iskandariya(10), a city closer to normality:
1,000,000 Population
0 Used Cottage-Like Improvements
4 Used Water Tiles
2 Specialists
So this means
4 Non-Urban Tiles Used
5.00 Urban Pop Factor
55.56% Urban Pop
5% of Non-Urban = 22,222
577,778 Urban Population
Let's try Makkah(11) too:
1,331,000 Population
0 Used Cottage-Like Improvements
5 Used Water Tiles
3 Specialists
So:
3 Non-Urban Tiles Used
6.75 Urban Pop Factor
69.23% Urban Pop
5% of Non-Urban = 20,477
941,938 Urban Population
I'm impressed by the result of Makkah, and I was thinking Baghdad was closer to Al-Quds. For now these are our most Urbanized Cities: Al-Quds in 1st and Makkah in 2nd. I'll add this award to the next report.
Any reinterpretation of my calcs are welcome, so please share your opinion if you think something could be more appropriate then what I'm using.
We are almost creating a type of Arab Games, but instead of playing it with athletes or something else, we compare each others' stats
Manuss
Sleeping man
TheNoob
Dank Memes
Come on Mecca I know you can be bigger
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
For the record, I'd prefer either Starlight Glimmer or Sunset Shimmer rather than Twilight Sparkle (no points for noticing a trend here) to represent me, but you made me laugh anyway.
For the record I credit the Jews for Sham's supremacy.
For the record, I'd prefer either Starlight Glimmer or Sunset Shimmer rather than Twilight Sparkle (no points for noticing a trend here) to represent me, but you made me laugh anyway.
For the record I credit the Jews for Sham's supremacy.
Gimme a nice pic with its face looking to any side and I may do it for you if you want
. Preferably with a "fight" expression on its look.I couldn't control myself and I had to do another one (this time bigger):
Misr VS Al-Zanj
Imperator Knoedel
Currently obsessed with The Owl House
Comrade Chairmare Stali- eh Starlight Glimmer:
Sunset Motherbucking Shimmer:
Spoiler :
Sunset Motherbucking Shimmer:
Spoiler :
GreekAnalyzer
Back from the Dead
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If you need one for me make it a bust of Socrates/Aristotle.
Manuss
Sleeping man
Good Lord. 
GreekAnalyzer
Back from the Dead
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My sides are orbital
CaterpillarKing
Conqueror of Cacoons
I think civ 4 angry Zara Yaqob on whatever you decide is in order
adhiraj.bose
Deity
You could have made me Shang Tsung 
for Iraq . He has the turban and the goatee from MK3 .
for Iraq . He has the turban and the goatee from MK3 .
