The Dismantling of Confederate Remnants Continues

secession is not treason, we seceded from England and the south seceded from the north

I think blacks have been mistreated enough without having the past rubbed in their noses with a stupid flag and 'monuments' to the defenders of slavery and terrorism
 
And a civil war that remains a troubling memory after 150 years was perhaps more one of those "regrettable necessities" that a "moral triumph"?

I choose to see the Civil War as a redeeming moment in history.
 
secession is not treason, we seceded from England and the south seceded from the north
I think blacks have been mistreated enough without having the past rubbed in their noses with a stupid flag and 'monuments' to the defenders of slavery and terrorism

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighting, fighting for freedom*
Would be hilarious when all the Black slaves declared the right to seceded from the Confederacy because you know, its not treason and the South is all about secededing for freedoms and wouldnt be slaughtered like terrorists. Right ? RIGHT ?

Anyway, wars of independence and self determination its a fine line
 
I think it's a bit late to suddenly be finding these offensive, and you're trying to erase part of the history of your nation.

It's not erasing history though. It's refusing to honor those who spat on this nation and its ideals. School children will still learn about Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee, I'm just hoping this move is the first step in ensuring those school children aren't given an inaccurate representation of those figures as being worthy of the same praise as the real heroes of this nation.
 
I like how it is brushed over that the North didn't just force the South to stop slavery, but outright annexed it. As if the latter HAD to happen for the former to take place ;)

No one here is for slavery. But hypocrisy runs high still. Particularly when the North annexed a country, and then went on to merrily slaughter even more native americans and take their lands, cause it was so decent and moral.

I suppose the similarly real attack on the Maine justifies annexing spanish colonies too ^^
 
I like how it is brushed over that the North didn't just force the South to stop slavery, but outright annexed it. As if the latter HAD to happen for the former to take place

The US did not annex the Confederacy. You cannot annex what is already yours.
 
It's not erasing history though. It's refusing to honor those who spat on this nation and its ideals. School children will still learn about Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee, I'm just hoping this move is the first step in ensuring those school children aren't given an inaccurate representation of those figures as being worthy of the same praise as the real heroes of this nation.

I generally agree with that, but you're looking at things a bit backwards. The Civil War was, in one sense, a means of working out what the ideals of the US actually were. It's right to say that Davis, Lee, Calhoun and so on represent ideals that we now find disgraceful, and that we shouldn't honour them. But if we're going to be educating children about them, we also need to make them realise that things might have gone the other way, and that it wasn't obvious in 1830 or 1860 that the US would become a nation based on universal liberty. After all, it would be a huge mistake to cast the Civil War as the moment when the USA decided that its 'ideals' were liberty and racial equality, and gloss over the following century of segregation and institutionalised racism.
 
What was king George III trying to do with the colonies?

Crush a rebellion. He failed. What's your point?

After all, it would be a huge mistake to cast the Civil War as the moment when the USA decided that its 'ideals' were liberty and racial equality, and gloss over the following century of segregation and institutionalised racism.

I would say that was the moment we decided our ideals were going to be liberty and racial equality. The following century you refer to was the struggle to put that decision into action.
 
That by the point you have been in war with someone for years, you no longer own their land.

Sure you do. The colonies were still considered British sovereign territory by everyone but the colonists until we were formally granted our independence in 1783. The Confederacy was not officially recognized as a sovereign nation by a single other nation. The closest they came was the British entering into occasional talks, but they stopped short of formal recognition because they didn't want to give legitimacy to a nation that condoned slavery and recognizing the CSA would have been seen as an act of war by the US federal government.

So since no other nation recognized them as a sovereign nation and there was no treaty granting them independence, they were never a nation and the Civil War was not an annexation. It was the suppression of a violent rebellion against the recognized sovereign authority over those states. Remember, just because you declare independence doesn't make it so.
 
Saying that international recognition is what makes a nation legitimate is a very slippery slope.

Is it not true though? I mean, if you declare independence, but no one else respects that declaration then you aren't going to have a very successful nation or stay independent for long.
 
Sure, but that's a practical matter, and 'legitimate' is an ideological word, not a practical one. Most of the world recognises Palestine and Taiwan as legitimate states, but it's at least a gross oversimplification to say that the debate ends there.
 
I think it's useful to distinguish between the historic and artistic value of monuments, and their continuing memorial value. A monument or statute or piece of public art should probably be removed if it still performs a memorialising task for some intersubjectively defined evil. Thus in post-Cold War Eastern Europe, lots of statues were removed, as they were active symbols of the oppressive state, not simply neutral pieces of history or art. But in some places, the statutes were removed to a special park where they could remain on display because of their enduring historic and artistic value. So you can go to 'Memento Park' in Budapest, for example, and see a collection of old realist pieces that used to adorn the streets of the capital, together with a little museum about communist rule (though of course it shouldn't be forgotten that this park and museum themselves perform a political task, particularly in Orban's Hungary).

Similarly, we don't tend to completely tear down historical buildings that stood for oppressive or evil regimes, with some exceptions such as Nazi buildings in Germany, because those buildings themselves performed a memorialising task.

So removing Confederate monuments makes perfect sense, but so too would keeping them in place inside a museum dedicated to teaching people about the US Civil War. What is objectionable is keeping them in place if they still perform the role of memorialising the lost confederacy; to say it's tearing down history would miss the point of the continuing political function served by Confederate memorials in the South.
 
It's not erasing history though. It's refusing to honor those who spat on this nation and its ideals. School children will still learn about Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee, I'm just hoping this move is the first step in ensuring those school children aren't given an inaccurate representation of those figures as being worthy of the same praise as the real heroes of this nation.

I often have similar feelings about those pesky Irish, spitting on the great British nation and its ideals.

Edit: Or indeed those rebellious traitors across the Atlantic.
 
What is objectionable is keeping them in place if they still perform the role of memorialising the lost confederacy; to say it's tearing down history would miss the point of the continuing political function served by Confederate memorials in the South.
Precisely. In 2000, some people erected a statue to Nathan Bedford Forrest in Selma, Alabama, of all places, and it was just 2011 when a group in Mississippi wanted to memorialize Forrest on new license plates. This isn't just 152-yr-old history. After Dylan Roof murdered several people in a church in 2015, the mayor of Memphis had a bust of Forrest removed from City Hall, and this past October, the Tennessee Historical Commission reversed the Memphis City Council's decision to remove an old monument to Forrest from a city park.

[EDIT: Nathan Bedford Forrest was a Confederate general accused of war crimes, and a member of the KKK, possibly a very high-ranking one.]
 
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So removing Confederate monuments makes perfect sense, but so too would keeping them in place inside a museum dedicated to teaching people about the US Civil War. What is objectionable is keeping them in place if they still perform the role of memorialising the lost confederacy; to say it's tearing down history would miss the point of the continuing political function served by Confederate memorials in the South.

I'd agree with that. We have plenty of civil war museums and education though, which is why framing getting rid of these monuments as some sort of Orwellian destruction-of-history (not that anyone in particular was doing so) seems wrong.
 
[EDIT: Nathan Bedford Forrest was a Confederate general accused of war crimes, and a member of the KKK, possibly a very high-ranking one.]

Which is why it's so redonkulous stupid that everybody settles for calling him an evil genius, which he certainly was, instead of pointing out the fact that this evil genius himself recanted the KKK, recanted his early life stances, and late in life stood many decades ahead of his countrymen on the issue of race. But hey, the racists certainly don't like that view it robs them of a hero. And the people that fancy themselves righteous don't like that view, it robs them partially of a villain.

Being right is always more important than being right.
 
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