The Dural

[scaramouche]

What if the Dural could sac great prophets to build Master Craftsman type buildings? It seems to me that these Masters are very Dural, at heart. Something to do with them, perhaps?

 

[Valkrionn]

Not exactly. As I said, The Risen Emperor can only use it to create the Nox Novus since that is the only (?) Holy City they can get and I'm not even sure about that. So while your point is valid, a Scion player might want the benefit of a Great Philosopher building instead of a Altar of Lutunar, especially since they probably won't get very many of them.

Actually, I tend to crank out MORE prophets as The Risen Emperor than anyone else... A high-powered Legate or Doomsayer right of the gate, to generate Reborn? Yes, please.

 

[Randomness]

Not exactly. As I said, The Risen Emperor can only use it to create the Nox Novus since that is the only (?) Holy City they can get and I'm not even sure about that. So while your point is valid, a Scion player might want the benefit of a Great Philosopher building instead of a Altar of Lutunar, especially since they probably won't get very many of them.

Yes, but flavour wise they would definetly use prophets. I know they aren't quite as good for them, as they are agnostic, but they are still desent GP. Holy city buildings are just one aspect of the great prophet (a large one albet, but just one).

 

[Kjara]

Someone was talking about being able to build mini-great specialists, that made me think of the following.

How about an engineer hero that gets a hope like spell/special ability that gives a hammer bonus instead of culture(or possibly some hammers and culture). So hes basically a great engineer that you can move to a developing town to give it a boost off the bat. Perhaps also something similar to rush construction, where he can rush construction of any "normal" building, but then can't use the ability again for x number of turns? Lastly, perhaps have him give a defensive boost to any town hes in(similar to how guardsmen give a defense boost).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Someone was talking about being able to build mini-great specialists, that made me think of the following.

How about an engineer hero that gets a hope like spell/special ability that gives a hammer bonus instead of culture(or possibly some hammers and culture). So hes basically a great engineer that you can move to a developing town to give it a boost off the bat. Perhaps also something similar to rush construction, where he can rush construction of any "normal" building, but then can't use the ability again for x number of turns? Lastly, perhaps have him give a defensive boost to any town hes in(similar to how guardsmen give a defense boost).

nice idea, I'd love this. I carefully nurture new cities

 

[arkham4269]

nice idea, I'd love this. I carefully nurture new cities

In regard to nurturing cities, on of the things I miss from the old Rise & Rule Mod of Civ III (precursor to the Civ IV Rise of Mankind Mod) is the concept of the prize ship.

When a pirate ship took a ship, you had a chance to get a prize ship. This was basically a cruddy galleon in the same way a slave is a cruddy worker. However, when you took it back to port and 'destroyed' it (the Civ III equivalent of adding it as a hammer bonus similar to slaves) you'd get a BIG hammer bonus. This, I felt, was keeping with how lucrative take prizes were. Many a Frigate commander turned down higher command because it paid to be a smaller ship commander during war so you could use your Letters of Marque to make more money.

I wish we could bring that back in Civ IV. Pirate ships could create prizes as well as pirate ships themselves could become prize ships. The reason I really liked these (and why I'm bringing it up) is you often have island cities with only a few (if any) extra tiles to bring in hammers. These cities grow slowly and bringing in the prizes ships was a good way to grow them quickly.

Another thought is some way to have a mini-bard that brings in the people to that area and so works like the Scions unit and adds a +1 to the city. Being able to bulk up a certain city is a powerful tool. It's the one thing I miss from Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri; setters could add population to existing cities. Not sure why that isn't a option anymore as you use to be able to do it in Civ III.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yeah, using settlers to add population to cities would make sense to me.

 

[Kjara]

yeah, using settlers to add population to cities would make sense to me.

Didn't this happen when settlers cost a population point to build rather than just stopping growth?

 

[Iceciro]

Yep, in Civ III it cost you a pop point to build a settler.

 

[xienwolf]

I thought it was 1 pop for a worker, 2 for a settler.

 

[Jabie]

I thought it was 1 pop for a worker, 2 for a settler.

Yep. And one for a Colonist in the AoD scenario.

As for Dural "Citizens", all should cost food and Hammers a la Settlers. Only one of each type per City. They could all produce 2 Food, thus paying for themselves foodwise.

Suggested names:

Labourer: As Citizen. (Cost should be cheaper than others)
Poet: +1 Culture (Requires Drama)
Playwright: +2 Culture (Requires Theatre)
Architect: (Requires Engineering and City Size 10+)
Elder: (Requires Elder Council)
Professor: (Requires Library or some kind of University National Wonder?)
Not too sure what the Priest replacement (if any) would be.

Great Works could give you a minor GP instead of 100 Hammers.

 

[Vehem]

What I'm currently considering regarding the Dural citizen specialists (the ones that you can always assign, in unlimited number, normally producing 1 Hammer) is a Palace that provides +1 Culture to each (so every citizen produces culture) and a set of "Colleges", only one of which can be build per city, which grants the citizens in that city yields similar to a true specialist.

College of Engineering +3 Hammers
College of Science +3 Science
College of Art +3 Culture
College of Economics +2 gold

etc...

That allows each city to "study" (specialize) in a specific area. It also sets the civ up neatly to favour cultural victories, due to being able to gain a very respectable amount of culture per citizen (+4 each with college of Art and Palace). Engineering is obviously for production cities, Economics help with maintaining the empire, Science has obvious benefits when stacked with libraries and such...

It also fits well with the thematics that the Dural aren't really about outstanding individuals and heroes - but that every citizen plays a role and contributes to their society, though each may be outstanding in some respect.

===

The main difference to the idea above is that it does not require any additional specialists to be defined (which would be visible but unassignable to other civs unless the city interface was rewritten slightly). It simply uses the existing "non-specialist specialists", and makes them a little more special. Each city would also still be able to assign other specialists as they desired/were allowed. A library in an Economic city for instance would still allow a Sage.

 

[Kjara]

So basically you want to give them a weaker form of guilds(I think its guilds, whatever one gives unlimited of 4 diff types) with no gpp points/only one type per city, but avail much earlier in the game?

Also note that with civics/wonders you can get up to 8 culture per citizen. While not as bad as unlimited bards at 10 per unit late game, it might lead to some wierd really early culture vics.

Another idea, rather than having each city specialize in this way, would be to just make them have unlimited specialists(and perhaps the sidar boost to specialists, or boosts as they get techs/buildings) from the start, but no great people growth? This would fit with each citizen filling the roll as best he can, but there being no "heroes", and give them a unique playstyle, if it could be balanced that specialists were still worth using, even without the gpp.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Vehem's idea sounds great. can't wait to try out the new Dural

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

an idea for the Dural:

they could be made unable to adopt a religion, BUT able to build every building and unit that requires a state religion, as long as they have the religion present in the city and the appropriate tech, so a city with OO could build asylums and stygian guards, etc.

Keeping with their lore of students and artists, they should still not be able to build religious temples. It would probably be best to block them from getting religious heroes and high priests too. this way they would be encouraged to spread all religions around their cities so they can study them and learn their useful assets. order and ashen veil should not be spread in the same city as I'm pretty sure it gives problems though, and Empyrean and Esus could get a similar drawback to represent the rivality between the councils and the gods.

think how fun it would be to have an army of rathas and diseased corpses, with a couple cultists added for flavour

 

[feydras]

What I'm currently considering regarding the Dural citizen specialists (the ones that you can always assign, in unlimited number, normally producing 1 Hammer) is a Palace that provides +1 Culture to each (so every citizen produces culture) and a set of "Colleges", only one of which can be build per city, which grants the citizens in that city yields similar to a true specialist.

College of Engineering +3 Hammers
College of Science +3 Science
College of Art +3 Culture
College of Economics +2 gold

etc...

That allows each city to "study" (specialize) in a specific area. It also sets the civ up neatly to favour cultural victories, due to being able to gain a very respectable amount of culture per citizen (+4 each with college of Art and Palace). Engineering is obviously for production cities, Economics help with maintaining the empire, Science has obvious benefits when stacked with libraries and such...

It also fits well with the thematics that the Dural aren't really about outstanding individuals and heroes - but that every citizen plays a role and contributes to their society, though each may be outstanding in some respect.

===

The main difference to the idea above is that it does not require any additional specialists to be defined (which would be visible but unassignable to other civs unless the city interface was rewritten slightly). It simply uses the existing "non-specialist specialists", and makes them a little more special. Each city would also still be able to assign other specialists as they desired/were allowed. A library in an Economic city for instance would still allow a Sage.

Maybe i'm not understanding this but what would be the benefit as a Dural player? Ex.. it would always be a better choice to assign two specialists to scientists than to stick them in the generic worker slot in a city with the College of Science. The former grants GPP and you can stick them in once you've built an elder council and library (two very common buildings) rather than build a College first. Same thing goes with the other Colleges to a lesser extent. Sure, you can use it for overflow specialists but even then, i'd rather stick a regular citizen on a mined grassy hill for +1 food and +3 hammers than in the College of Engineering worker slot for +3 hammers (+1 culture for the Dural Palace). I don't usually have any overflow specialists that cannot be assigned to one of the specialist slots. Maybe my style of play is not normal or maybe i'm just not understanding this concept.

 

[Iceciro]

Well, actually, you get 3 beakers, a hammer, and a culture from a Citizen-Specialist in the College of Science.

And GPP are really only useful in your major GPP city, because that primary city will lap every other city. Don't forget all those yields are in addition to the +1 hammer and +1 culture from the citizen-specialist themselves.

My only concern is that I thought the Sidar were the specialist masters?

 

[Valkrionn]

Well, actually, you get 3 beakers, a hammer, and a culture from a Citizen-Specialist in the College of Science.

And GPP are really only useful in your major GPP city, because that primary city will lap every other city. Don't forget all those yields are in addition to the +1 hammer and +1 culture from the citizen-specialist themselves.

My only concern is that I thought the Sidar were the specialist masters?

Different styles of specialism. Sidar can settle great people without having to feed them, while the Dural would still have to feed them.

 

[WarKirby]

...The Risen Emperor can only use it to create the Nox Novus since that is the only (?) Holy City they can get ....

Nox Noctis