The Dural

[arkham4269]

...another idea is to allow Dural to build 'Trader' units which could act like miniature great merchants, trading their superior goods with other civs. it might be simpler to allow them to get extra trade routes from certain buildings.

While Disciples can do it, perhaps they could have a unit similar to the Rise of Mankind unit "the entertainer" that you can use to boost culture. In the Dural case, this unit (a Herald? lesser Bard?) would give a bigger cultural boost than you'd get from using a Disciple.

Maybe they could actually 'build' lesser versions of great people. I mean if you are going to take the time to build a Hero for war, why not build a 'hero' for culture or trade and the like?

 

[Vehem]

Maybe they could actually 'build' lesser versions of great people. I mean if you are going to take the time to build a Hero for war, why not build a 'hero' for culture or trade and the like?

That's something I'd been considering too - inspired by Tarq's "Dark Council" heroes and the fact that Dannmos's 'pedia entry mentions that he keeps a number of "experts" to advise him on many topics...

 

[arkham4269]

Order is not about good. It is about obedience. Good and evil are gameplay mechanics in FfH, it has nothing to do with morals.

Now you'd expect me to conclude saying something like: Order = evil, AV = good. Nope, good and evil as well as morals in general are concepts somebody created to control other people. It is of course up to you whether you agree or not.

These are good points and I have no problem with them since I agree. However, for that to work the way I'm talking about (Lawful Evil as it were) then it would seem to need to have another set of alternate heroes and buildings depending on your religion.

I'm looking at the new FfH2k manual and there is a line about "The Order is rightly labeled good..." and all the heroes and buildings and enabled civics match that.

I've always had a problem with the religions and the way they flip your cultures alignment. To me, I would think that some religions like the Order should have two sides to it and depending on your alignment number (not good, evil or neutral, but you +/- number) should enable what you get.

For example, if you had a 'corrupted' Order where obedience is all and instead of enlightenment you have repression, then that Order should have a different Hero, different buildings and a different civic. I would think that if you had this Corrupted Order or perhaps Order is All, you're basically having the Fascist civic along with inquisitors and instead of Basilicas, you'd might have the FfH equivalent of police stations. You are totally right, they'd have fascism instead of liberty.

Plus you'd expect that they might be able to quell dissent using a Purge kind of similar to the Calabim's feeding their Vampires in that you'd basically execute citizens which would lower the cities population, give a cut to science beakers for awhile but would deny that city for a certain number of turns. This in turn might trigger a event in other players similar to the Calaibim refugee events.

 

[Tarquelne]

That's something I'd been considering too - inspired by Tarq's "Dark Council" heroes and the fact that Dannmos's 'pedia entry mentions that he keeps a number of "experts" to advise him on many topics...

Just have them join the Dark Council. Bwaha, ha.

 

[arkham4269]

Just have them join the Dark Council. Bwaha, ha.

"All you have to lose is your humanity and your devotion to anything other than the total devotion to the Risen Emperor!"

 

[Tarquelne]

I've always had a problem with the religions and the way they flip your cultures alignment. To me, I would think that some religions like the Order should have two sides to it and depending on your alignment number (not good, evil or neutral, but you +/- number) should enable what you get.

That's far more realistic, so far as the RW goes, and I wouldn't mind if the game worked that way. However, I think it's part of the fantasy background that religion trumps culture.

As things are I think you have to appeal to RPing. A Calabim Order is popular to play but not very "nice," for example.

OTOH, when Broader Alignment kicks in the changes won't be so absolute. A *really* Evil civ may only stop torturing on Mondays after 6 pm. once it embraces Tree Hugging, or whatever.

There's already a PrereqAlignment fields for Units and Civics. Once alignment changes due to religion become variable adding variant Units and Civics would be easy - the Prereq fields already exist in the files. If FF doesn't adopt the variants a module could still easily add them. (And that sort of mod really is easy. It's not much harder than filling out a form. Well, filling out a form and using a screen-shot to make an icon...

 

[arkham4269]

As things are I think you have to appeal to RPing. A Calabim Order is popular to play but not very "nice," for example.

Exactly and to me the Calabim are exactly the type of culture I'd expect with the fascist version of The Order. I could see the Scions under Korianna adopting it as well to use Order as an excuse to crush any dissent as well actually further the Cult of Personality of the Risen Emperor. I mean fascist governments tend to equate the State as being a body with the Leader being the brain in a way. With Order, Korianna can make sure all the citizens know their place in service to that Order that puts the deified Emperor as the head of the Body/State.

Anyway, the Order seems to be a really good religion to have a bit of good/bad side to it. Just because you are a dictatorial tyrant that will kill you in a heart beat if you dissent doesn't mean that if you 'play ball' he won't protect you, cherish you and all that because your devotion and well being acts as a mirror to his greatness. As I said earlier, a good example is Dr. Doom's comment about "The only freedom I take away is their freedom to do evil." Sounds great but Dr. D gets to be the one who defines evil and I'm sure anything that is counter to what Dr. D wants is evil. So again "Order" is a slippery concept and one that could easily be turned to what we'd considered evil and repressive.

 

[GeeJo]

It strikes me that Duin would make an excellent Evil Leaves hero - an excellent way to represent the feral aspects of a nature-based religion.

 

[Hawkwood]

For example, if you had a 'corrupted' Order where obedience is all and instead of enlightenment you have repression, then that Order should have a different Hero, different buildings and a different civic. I would think that if you had this Corrupted Order or perhaps Order is All, you're basically having the Fascist civic along with inquisitors and instead of Basilicas, you'd might have the FfH equivalent of police stations. You are totally right, they'd have fascism instead of liberty.

Why would that be a different version of Order, if someone following Order (well, having the Social Order civic) already stones anyone speaking against the government?

Remember Basium is good, and doesn't care about collateral damage when fighting evil. I think Kael has at some point stated that if an innocent village was between Basium and an Infernal army, Basium would destroy the village to get to the Infernals.

 

[KingArthur666]

While reading through this thread (and patiently (not very) waiting for FF 044 to be released) an idea occurred to me. Wouldn't it be nice if random events could affect your alignment rather than just building things or using certain civics or religions? Like the we found a witch and want to burn her event? It gives you two choices, burn the witch for a temporary happiness bonus with no ill effects or let her go for nothing. I should always burn her to make my citizens happy, but I must admit I generally don't because +1 happiness for a short period of time doesn't seem all that good to me for killing an innocent woman. I know it's just a game, but it bothers me. Now if killing her moved my alignment toward evil, and that is what I wanted I would kill her every time.

 

[arkham4269]

While reading through this thread (and patiently (not very) waiting for FF 044 to be released) an idea occurred to me. Wouldn't it be nice if random events could affect your alignment rather than just building things or using certain civics or religions? Like the we found a witch and want to burn her event? It gives you two choices, burn the witch for a temporary happiness bonus with no ill effects or let her go for nothing. I should always burn her to make my citizens happy, but I must admit I generally don't because +1 happiness for a short period of time doesn't seem all that good to me for killing an innocent woman. I know it's just a game, but it bothers me. Now if killing her moved my alignment toward evil, and that is what I wanted I would kill her every time.

I totally agree since there should always be a trade off. I've noticed that in the werewolf event, there isn't much of a downside. Most people, I'm sure, are just trying to do what ever gets them the werewolf promotion.

Although unless you are using the broader alignment option, perhaps you don't necessarily see any change. I do, but I don't recall seeing a change.

 

[WarKirby]

My thoughts

• Give them slightly cheaper workers than everyone else (20% less or so)
• give them +1 and +1 from Worker specialists. you know, the default type that you can have an infinite amount of.
• Allow their workers to add themselves to the city, giving a set amount of towards the current building. Like soldiers of Kilmorph. Perhaps this amount could also increase with certain techs, like Engineering
• Give them 1 free worker specialist for each worker stationed (sleeping) in the city.
• Some sort of academy that trains all unit types faster, to a certain level.

 

[Vehem]

My thoughts

• Give them slightly cheaper workers than everyone else (20% less or so)
• give them +1 and +1 from Worker specialists. you know, the default type that you can have an infinite amount of.
• Allow their workers to add themselves to the city, giving a set amount of towards the current building. Like soldiers of Kilmorph. Perhaps this amount could also increase with certain techs, like Engineering
• Give them 1 free worker specialist for each worker stationed (sleeping) in the city.
• Some sort of academy that trains all unit types faster, to a certain level.

Some nice ones here - especially relating to the Citizen specialists...

 

[Iceciro]

I'd like to see the Citizen-Specialists buff for the Dural, myself.

Someone a while up mentioned that it doesn't make much sense to have empires that can train incredibly powerful combat units using the resources of the civilization, but not any other kind of important people... and I agree. This need not apply to only the Dural, but it seems like a great idea... buildable specialists which cost a lot of hammers (perhaps even food too, in the construction) but are added to a city when complete, to add a sort of "work now, payoff later" approach, much like happened in the great revolutionary periods of our history as real humans... I think that buildings shouldn't be the only non-combat things you can build. Mini-great people would be great, especially for the Dural.

 

[Skitters]

I was thinking the other night, that one thing that FFH and FF lack is a civ that simply can't/won't use magic. The Khazad to some extent I guess....but I was thinking that perhaps there is an opportunity to have the Dural as a magic intolerant civ - with things like Witchfinder General units?

The Academic element of the Dural could be represented by an Engineering side - so perhaps they could be a little more steampunkish, with Steam Cannons (fire thrower-esque) and Airships?

Using magic directly would be heretical - so as such Arcane units would be unavailable to them, except perhaps for an "Engineer" unit replacement that could convert raw mana (perhaps limited mana - so no Necromancy?). The mana itself would not be allowed to be used directly by the Engineer, but access to it would allow the purchase of equipment - so for example fire and water mana may be the pre-requisite for a "Steam Cannon" promotion.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

if we want a magic-hater civ, my vote goes to the Mechanos from Orbis

 

[Iceciro]

I'd like to see the Mechanos in, but the Dural don't seem to be the type to drop Magic alltogether.

 

[arkham4269]

if we want a magic-hater civ, my vote goes to the Mechanos from Orbis

As one who has been playing the Mechanos a lot lately, I agree.

However, some ideas I've tossed around on the Orbis mod & Religious mod thread might be applicable here.

First off, for the Mechanos & the Grigori and the Risen Emperor of the Scions get less benefit from Great Prophets than the other races due. So I was thinking perhaps those races (at first) might have access to a Great Philosopher instead. Now this might be a different unit or many there might be put in some sort of IF THEN/GOTO that allows Great Prophets to 'promote' to Great Philosophers instead. These units could found the Humanism "holy city" (which would be like a Super Academy) or join a city as a super-specialist that would bring in science and culture. To me, the Dural might want Great Philosophers instead of Prophets as well, especially since it looks like the new version of FfH/FF have newer buildings that can only be built by certain types of specialist.

A quick sub-text to that: I miss Cathedrals. Now Orbis has University as a National Wonder so I was thinking that perhaps that Great Prophets or Great Philosophers could also be used to create a National Wonder, a Cathedral in the Prophets case and a University/Seminary for the Great Philosopher.

Anyway, on the Religious mod thread I pointed out that the 'basic' religion of humanity isn't Paganism but animism and then later ancestor worship. Some of these become more 'refined' like in the animistic Shintoism and ancestor focused Confucianism. Neither of these are religions in the sense of being God(s) driven. With the abundance of mana and the like, I really could see animism. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people can't be moral w/o a religious system, but most moral systems tend to have a religious base to it. So to me, even though the Grigori are agnostic, I don't see why they couldn't start with the base Animism with shrines to such. (Meditation chambers if you will) and then later could get something akin to Confucianism. If the Mechanos are added (or not) this could later go to "Human"ism which I would see as a direct rejection of the Gods and their interference in Erebus.

The Dural definitely look like they might tend toward this "Human"ism since they themselves strive to create and inspire so why do you best and then have to say "I'd like to thank (insert deity) for inspiring me."

Of course in Orbis, Humanism doesn't spread like a religion but I think it should and would have the affect similar to Order and AV in the same city.

 

[Randomness]

Cross out Risen Emperor. They would still benefit from prophets. Something like their priest units, the Doomsayer. Other than that, I get your point, good ideas.

 

[arkham4269]

Cross out Risen Emperor. They would still benefit from prophets. Something like their priest units, the Doomsayer. Other than that, I get your point, good ideas.

Not exactly. As I said, The Risen Emperor can only use it to create the Nox Novus since that is the only (?) Holy City they can get and I'm not even sure about that. So while your point is valid, a Scion player might want the benefit of a Great Philosopher building instead of a Altar of Lutunar, especially since they probably won't get very many of them.