The Emperor's new Space Program

[Winner]

An insightful and relevant engagement of my arguments.

Why waste arguments on someone who had failed to get the basic point I had made earlier? That is that robotic missions cannot supplant human presence and certain types of exploration missions simply require humans in suits walking on the surface of another planets/moons.

A brilliant display in completely countering my issues with manned space flight, rather then a refutation of a position I never held. A refutation which is fallacious anyway.

No, it's not. I demonstrated that space exploration INCLUDING extensive manned spaceflight is nothing but a tiny item on the list of human activities. All space agencies in the whole world spend so awfully little that you targeting space exploration for budget cuts is patently ridiculous.

So unless you give me a good reason why should we (and I don't mean just the US now) limit manned space exploration and not, say, military expenses, welfare spending, sports or big industry bailouts, I am not going to take you seriously.

The hell are you talking about? Constellation used the same damned fundamental jet propulsion technology as Apollo.

I didn't say it was supposed to be used on Ares-family rockets, sheesh. But since Constellation was essentially a roadmap for a manned Mars mission, it was assumed better interplanetary propulsion would be developed.

He was Alonso V's uncle, and dead when what I described happened. Any centuries-long exploration will have its ups and downs, and that obviously applies to space exploration also. Look at what happened to the Russian space program after Korolyov died.

Really, you should research before attaching the facts presented by other people.

The point was that without extensive government intervention/funding/guidance, no such programme is possible. I am surprised that it's you who would support the "free market solves any problem" camp, but hey, stranger things have happened

is it a very significant thing to lose the geek vote?

Touché. So much for Obama doing sensible politics and not populist politics.

BTW, that new NASA administrator Charles Bolden really is a funny guy:

"For any of you who think we're abandoning human spaceflight, I just respectfully disagree," Bolden said. "I will think we're going to get there perhaps quicker than we would have done before. If you look at flights to Mars, for example, game-changing technologies allow us to get to Mars in days, not months."

What does he mean by "game-changing" technologies - warp drive? Currently, our best shots at advanced interplanetary propulsion is either VASIMR (electric-powered plasma engine) or some variant of nuclear-thermal rocket. Both would require weeks AT MINIMUM to transport any meaningful mass to Mars orbit. In the latest presentation to NASA officials, the company developing VASIMR engines has proposed to build a nuclear-powered 600 ton spacecraft that could make it to Mars in 39 days. That's about the best you can do with this tech without fusion reactors.

After this and his previous comments, I am worried about his sanity.

Just found this. First minute or so of the video (the most important part, you can safely ignore the rest, it is not relevant) speaks volumes - a typically Obamian pile of rhetorics which in today's perspective looks like a cruel joke.


Link to video.

 

[J-man]

Just found this. First minute or so of the video (the most important part, you can safely ignore the rest, it is not relevant) speaks volumes - a typically Obamian pile of rhetorics which in today's perspective looks like a cruel joke.


Link to video.

Obama cancelled the trip to the moon.
He didn't cut back on funding for NASA
Or prematurely canceled the space shuttle.

I only watched the first minute but he didn't break those promises.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Yeah, its all our fault.

How exactly do you get "all" from "most"?

Well, I guess that means I dont agree with Pat then does it?

It also ironically means:

Likewise, I am entitled to my opinion on why your opinion is rather myopic in light of the current state of our military and the ongoing situation in the world.

only watched the first minute but he didn't break those promises.

That is the way I saw it as well.

 

[Winner]

And another video to give you people a glimpse of how much work and effort will go to waste if Obama's plan are implemented:


Link to video.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Basic research is never wasted. What is wasted are specific implementation details, which in this particular case remarkably resemble 50-year-old Apollo technology but with updated systems. Plus, the original designs would have likely had to be drastically changed to overcome the inherent problems once some basic testing was performed anyway.

 

[Narz]

Good move by Obama. The Americans don't have enough money to be spending on ambitious projects like this

This.

 

[Kerozine]

I'm not sure if the article as quoted in the OP was deliberately obfuscated or not, but the BBC link of the article is far, far more comprehensive..

Anyway, it sounds like Obama made the right decision.

 

[Winner]

This.

I am still waiting till someone tells me how on Earth is it possible to raise the defense budget by several dozen billion dollars and at the same time claim that it is impossible to give NASA a raise amounting to about one twentieth of that sum

It's as if most people in this thread were selectively blind...

 

[yesboii]

I am still waiting till someone tells me how on Earth is it possible to raise the defense budget by several dozen billion dollars and at the same time claim that it is impossible to give NASA a raise amounting to about one twentieth of that sum

It's as if most people in this thread were selectively blind...

...Didn't Obama actually raised NASA's budget?

 

[Winner]

...Didn't Obama actually raised NASA's budget?

NASA needed some 3 billion a year more to continue in Constellation (or to do any other form of manned space exploration), it got much less than third of that. Basically, instead of finding the necessary funds elsewhere, Obama gave up and decided to waste 5 years of work and over 9 billion dollars for nothing. If he really wants NASA to just assist in the development of commercial spacecraft and launch few Earth observation satellites, he could just as well reduce NASA's budget to some 10 billion. ESA is doing all that for even less money...

EDIT: What I really don't get is why he killed the CEV (Crew Exploration Vehicle) too. Even if I went insane and accepted the notion of commercial firms being able to deliver on all their promises with regard to launcher rockets, I see no reason why to give up on having a robust, reliable spaceship with which you can fly beyond low-Earth orbit one day. Especially since you can use the commercial rockets to launch it, so you maintain at least an illusion of independence and a an asset for the future, when you get enough money to build bigger rockets.

As I followed the debate in the media and on the blogosphere, I never saw anybody guessing that the CEV would be cancelled. Many people speculated that Ares-1 programme would be terminated in favour of commercial rockets, many also discussed downgrading the heavy-lift Ares-V and abandonment of the Moon landing part of Constellation. But nobody would go as far as to say that EVERYTHING, the whole damn thing, would be cancelled.

But hey, Obama has this weird tendency to cancel whatever comes on his table, so I should have expected that.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

They dont have to go to the Eastern Seaboard to kill Americans. Or havent you noticed?

Whose fault is it that the Americans are so much closer to them?

And I am saying thats a silly recommendation based on my previous comments.

I don't really care.

Again, it would at least give you an appreciation of what soldiers go through due to a smaller military than we should have.

Did I demean them? No, I didn't.

And really, Cheesy, bringing up the desk and papers thing is really childish of you. I expect better honestly. You fully well know I havent always sat behind a desk, and have travled quite a bit around the world due to my military service. You utterly also forget that I deal with soldiers daily deploying and returning from theater.

I live next to a military base. I, too, see people I know leaving on deployment, and coming back, sometimes in a casket. More than a few people I went to high school with, even teammates, have died over there. Even my dad, though a civilian contractor, has been sent to the Gulf for a week or two, and had an angry man wave a Kalashnikov in his face. So don't act like I have no personal involvement with the goings on over there, or with people in the military, or with people directly experiencing these wars.

And you are entitled to your opinion. Likewise, I am entitled to my opinion on why your opinion is rather myopic in light of the current state of our military and the ongoing situation in the world.

A state we have helped create, and a situation which we, by and large, help to perpetuate, even now.

Many of them absolutely are.

Such as?

Dude, I gurantee I have fed more poor people than you have. My wife and I have worked homeless food ministries for churches in the Puget Sound area many times and we have been up here for over 23 years now.

Feeding poor people and working and living with them are two very very different things, admirable as the act is.

And yeah, just like your earlier quip about the military, I didnt say all social programs need be cut, did I?

I didn't say all either, now did I?

Again, you are welcome to your opinion, as wrong as it may be.

Likewise.

 

[MobBoss]

Whose fault is it that the Americans are so much closer to them?

Well, I guess it is our fault for having embassys in foreign lands. I didnt realize you were an advocate of complete isolation.

I don't really care.

Got that.

Did I demean them? No, I didn't.

No, as you stated, you just dont care about them.

I live next to a military base. I, too, see people I know leaving on deployment, and coming back, sometimes in a casket. More than a few people I went to high school with, even teammates, have died over there. Even my dad, though a civilian contractor, has been sent to the Gulf for a week or two, and had an angry man wave a Kalashnikov in his face. So don't act like I have no personal involvement with the goings on over there, or with people in the military, or with people directly experiencing these wars.

Bub, you are the one that started it with the paper/desk remarks. I never said you didnt have personal involvement or maybe even know someone, but you cant compare yourself to my experience in being in the military for 23 years and counting. Its a losing situation for you to even try. But try you did, so dont blame me for you going there backfiring on you in a big way. Needless to say, despite your petty remarks about me being behind a desk, my experience has invovled a great deal more than just living beside a military base or knowing a couple of people who served.

A state we have helped create, and a situation which we, by and large, help to perpetuate, even now.

Laying ad hoc blame on the USA for everything isnt really a path to fix anything.

Feeding poor people and working and living with them are two very very different things, admirable as the act is.

And I have also mentioned that my wife and I have allowed homeless women with children to live us with on at least 3 different times. Again, you dont hold any moral superiority over me in this area. Not even close.

I didn't say all either, now did I?

No, but cutting the military budget at this current time isnt a wise move at all, when most experts are actually recommending the exact opposite. Its a knee jerk solution without much real thought behind it to be honest. Myopic, and simply not a very good idea. At all.

 

[El_Machinae]

Thanks for killing the dream, Barack.

Don't let the dream die! Get out your own wallet! That way, you're not even asking anyone to violate the Constitution.

This is what we said, way back when.

Um ... I don't know if there's anything I can contribute to physics research though. I'm asking how you, me, and VRWCAgent can take steps to make sure we see Earth from space someday.

Oh, it probably won't happen, I'm quite aware of that. I don't have $20 million to hitch a ride from the Russians, and even if I did have $20 million, I have to confess I don't think I'd be so selfish as to blow it on a space trip.

I don't know if I agree. Burt Rutan is working quite hard to bring down the price quite a bit. Heck, $26 million is what SpaceShipOne cost, and it was a prototype.

As well, can you really call it selfish? From what I understand, tourist trips to space are an essential component of the plan to get mankind to space. In order to get off this rock, we (as a species) NEED for some people to be customers in the risky/expensive portion of the endeavour. If the trips get down from $200,000 USD to $10,000, it might seem selfish to spend the money on a trip (fulfilling a life's dream) - but if our species needs to survive, that money needs to be spent. Might as well be you.

 

[MobBoss]

Don't let the dream die! Get out your own wallet! That way, you're not even asking anyone to violate the Constitution.

This is what we said, way back when.

Earlier in the thread someone alluded to NASA eventually becoming the FAA of space.

I really wouldnt mind that, but its also pretty contingent on the civil sector picking up the slack. And your right, thats only going to happen if people open up their wallets.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Earlier in the thread someone alluded to NASA eventually becoming the FAA of space.

Just someone?

My pride.

 

[Winner]

Bump time! Or did you think I was going to give up on this so easily?

Here's the new episode of This Week in Space. The first part is interesting, since they're discussing the cancellation of the Orion spaceship and explain why it doesn't make any sense both in short and long term and why would relying on purely commercial spacecraft (which not yet exist and for which there is very little market opportunity) be pretty irresponsible.

Oh, and the Russians want to charge more for the Soyuz seats (also mentioned in the video), so if no magical commercial spacecraft materializes soon, Russians will surely enjoy more American money in their budget. It must feel great to have the US by the balls for a change


Link to video.

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

It's official, Obama has proposed to end decades of American human space exploration.



I imagine the Chinese space programme leaders are having a little celebration in Beijing right now. Europeans and Russians can only react with a *facepalm* and + Especially the Russians who will now be the sole provider of transport to and out of the space station.

50 years long space race between the US and Russia is finally over. The Russians have won through sheer perseverance

All this is just more proof that Obama Bin Laden is a douchebag.

 

[holy king]

 

[Winner]

 

[Lord Baal]

Bah, I didn't notice Khan Noonien Singh conquering my continent in the early-to-mid nineties. They need to go back to at least 1992, by my reckoning.