The end of Religion is inevitable?

[Farm Boy]

Why does something have to be worth living for? Why do you need a purpose higher than simply existing

Because I find that tedium to be a short road to lethal.

 

[Narz]

Because I find that tedium to be a short road to lethal.

How does adding an artificial layer reduce tedium?

"I am toiling and suffering but I'm doing my best in a chaotic world" feels less depressing than "I am toiling and suffering because God wants me to"

 

[Lexicus]

"I am toiling and suffering but I'm doing my best in a chaotic world" feels less depressing than "I am toiling and suffering because God wants me to"

This is a matter of taste, about which one should not argue. What seems indisputable is that feeling some sense of purpose, whatever it is, is preferable to merely existing.

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

What seems indisputable is that feeling some sense of purpose, whatever it is, is preferable to merely existing.

I feel a lot of philosophy disputes this. It is very freeing once you accept we are merely existing for a short glimmer.

 

[Lexicus]

I feel a lot of philosophy disputes this. It is very freeing once you accept we are merely existing for a short glimmer.

Having a sense of purpose is not the same as believing in an afterlife.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Today's reading was from Ecclesiastes 5. Verse 19 is

Moreover, when God gives someone wealth and possessions, and the ability to enjoy them, to accept their lot and be happy in their toil—this is a gift of God.

It's the "be happy in their toil" that particularly resonated with me.

Oops. Verse 20 was meaningful, too:

They seldom reflect on the days of their life, because God keeps them occupied with gladness of heart.

Sorry. I liked verse 12 also:

The sleep of a laborer is sweet,
whether they eat little or much,
but as for the rich, their abundance
permits them no sleep.

Hitting it out of the park today, Lord.

I feel a lot of philosophy disputes this.

Gets listed in, say, Maslow's hierarchy of needs:

So I think psychology tends to hold that it has an importance.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I feel a lot of philosophy disputes this. It is very freeing once you accept we are merely existing for a short glimmer.

Philosophy is like a pretty bird locked in a cage of logic. It cannot sing and its feathers cannot sparkle, though, until relesed into the wild.

Religion, as we find it around the world and through time, is much more than conservtive Christianity and Islam.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Well maybe that's just the need of some to stretch the definition of science so as to increase the amount of past great people within the discipline, otherwise you only have great individuals of science spanning the last three hundred years. Not very impressive if your goal is to prove the superiority of one discipline over organized religion which has existed in one form or another for at least the last 12,000 years (would be even older if we consider tribal/totemic religions as "organized")

You're just so determined to cling to your notions that nobody did anything of note in any scientific field prior to 1700! FFS, Kepler and Galileo made their most important discoveries nearly a century earlier. As mentioned, Eratosthenes made his discovery 2000 years earlier. There are so many more discoveries that were made before the scientific method was formalized. Even a chef in antiquity would have used a form of the scientific method to figure out what works, what doesn't, and that some things will kill you if you eat them or if they're not prepared correctly.

I'm not sure it's always about control. In many cases yes, but in some it's more personal or about being content in a reality whereby most individuals don't really have much power to change anything at all, be it death, getting screwed over by someone else, etc.

It's often about control, or veers into control. Otherwise, why put such fear into the people who might otherwise want to leave?

God doesn't feel so remote the more he touches your life. Your hair will grey in fits and spurts like Moses, too, aging isn't a gentle slide, it's more like a lazy river theme park ride with erratic fatal rapids. God's touch hurts. God's touch is change. Still the only thing worth living for. Something has to be. Especially if you are going to create mortal children to sacrifice to the world. May all of everyone's here add beauty to the dance.

I'm curious about your references to "the dance". Is this what you're referring to?

This particular version would have been recorded over 40 years ago; lead singer in this one is George Millar (second from right in the thumbnail).

There's a SF/F version of this song, with a different melody, and a more pagan-centric feel to it. It's not quite so cheerful, but still as good to listen to. It was interesting, back in 1982, when Poul and Karen Anderson were the Guests of Honor at a science fiction convention in Calgary, and Karen Anderson joined the filking session on Saturday night. She had a lot of songs that were known among the California fans but hadn't made it up here. Interesting that we had different versions of this song.

The ideology of western liberal capitalism is also a religion. You need only look at how the people advocating it are doing so from a perspective of faith rather than sanity.
When you hear the poor arguing minimal wage laws are bad you can't but draw a parallel to the poor dying of the plague who cling to the notion that god has a plan.

Can't argue that. It's insanity, the way some of the people here in my province who are low-income, just a step away from a shelter or the street, can't imagine not voting for the government that sincerely doesn't give a crap about their well-being or the people who aren't party donors or anyone else willing to do them political favors.

Why does something have to be worth living for? Why do you need a purpose higher than simply existing?

To quote an android character from the Star Trek episode "I, Mudd": "It is necessary to have purpose."

What seems indisputable is that feeling some sense of purpose, whatever it is, is preferable to merely existing.

My purpose seems to have worked out to be raising cats who otherwise wouldn't have had a loving home with a decent life. So many of them were homeless strays or cats who wouldn't have had much of a chance. Maddy wouldn't have lived to the age she is now if she'd stayed a barn cat (she'll be 17 in just over a month).

 

[Farm Boy]

I adore the Irish rovers. The dance is the interplay of electrical impulses across the meat of our bodies that is our physical self self. When the dance stops, the meat has ceased to support our dance.

Those electrical fireflies sychonize with each other. They learned to do it through touch, they learned to do it through the air with our tounges, and now they've learned to synchronize all the way to the moon. They're amazing. I don't care if you believe in God, so long as you understand I am no less amazing than you.

 

[amadeus]

Nah.

Remember the end of history? How we were all going to be citizens of the world?

Trends can always change.

 

[Narz]

This is a matter of taste, about which one should not argue. What seems indisputable is that feeling some sense of purpose, whatever it is, is preferable to merely existing.

Purpose spoonfed to you by religious leaders vs choosing ones own. Seems to make a big difference. Obviously there's no getting away from cultural influence but choosing one's driving purpose haphazardly based on what others around you believe strikes me as beyond tragic.

We're blessed to be able to read 1000s of books if we like. For a peasant 1000 years ago perhaps unconditionally trusting the validity of the one book read to them by a priest made sense, now it's absurd.

We got one life, one mind and gonna say durr, yeah the Bible or Koran that's the stuff... Such a waste of a human brain

It's the "be happy in their toil" that particularly resonated with me.

Nice one, Jeff Bezos should emblazen it on the walls of Amazon factories.

They seldom reflect on the days of their life, because God keeps them occupied with gladness of heart.

This one feels more up Kim Jun Un's alley

 

[Farm Boy]

You think the faith and practice replaces other decisions and chosen subpurposes rather than enriches them? The pastor doesn't follow me around. Hell, I could probably lecture him depending on the topic. I know I could. It's not so hard to hold more than one thing in your head at a time, is it? I'm generally considered passing smart, I can too.

 

[Narz]

The pastor doesn't follow me around.

But God does, he's like ceiling cat

 

[Gori the Grey]

Nice one, Jeff Bezos should emblazen it on the walls of Amazon factories.

That would be to distort its meaning because, in the context of the whole quote, on those occasions when it happens, it's a gift. The quote is not in the imperative voice; does not command you to "be happy in your toil." It says that, if you are happy in your toil, that is a joy over and above the enjoyable goods that that toil wins you. I have that gift; that's why the phrase resonates with me.

 

[Narz]

That would be to distort its meaning because, in the context of the whole quote, on those occasions when it happens, it's a gift. The quote is not in the imperative voice; does not command you to "be happy in your toil." It says that, if you are happy in your toil, that is a joy over and above the enjoyable goods that that toil wins you. I have that gift; that's why the phrase resonates with me.

I know what you mean but it still don't like the vibe.

God always wants to get credit for "his gifts" but when stuff goes wrong it's the devil's fault or man for not being all up on his junk enuf.

Either everything is his gift (genocide, slavery, rape, depression, suicide, animals devouring each other alive including) or nothing is.

 

[Crezth]

Purpose spoonfed to you by religious leaders vs choosing ones own. Seems to make a big difference. Obviously there's no getting away from cultural influence but choosing one's driving purpose haphazardly based on what others around you believe strikes me as beyond tragic.

We're blessed to be able to read 1000s of books if we like. For a peasant 1000 years ago perhaps unconditionally trusting the validity of the one book read to them by a priest made sense, now it's absurd.

We got one life, one mind and gonna say durr, yeah the Bible or Koran that's the stuff... Such a waste of a human brain

If you read a thousand books and “choose” what to believe, what is the actual basis of your choice? Where do the values you make that choice come from and can you really take credit for believing in the same things anyone else who might grew up as you and read the same books did…? I mean you claim that you’re wise for not listening to church leaders. But another interpretation is that you’re arrogant and you refuse to contemplate any truth in what they say at all. Instead you get your truth from books. But you might also just be cherry picking things that confirm your already-had, deeply held beliefs. Is it really you choosing, or is that just a story you believe in so that you can justify your individualism and arrogance?

After all it’s pretty freaking arrogant to believe religious people have all had “purpose” spoonfed to them. I might say that about a guy who came to Jesus after killing his wife and kids. But people who grow up in a community believing in the community’s values is so normal that it applies to you too, Narzy boy.

 

[reddishrecue]

I know what you mean but it still don't like the vibe.

God always wants to get credit for "his gifts" but when stuff goes wrong it's the devil's fault or man for not being all up on his junk enuf.

Either everything is his gift (genocide, slavery, rape, depression, suicide, animals devouring each other alive including) or nothing is.

There are times when even the devil's fault becomes part of God's plan as well.

 

[Narz]

If you read a thousand books and “choose” what to believe, what is the actual basis of your choice? Where do the values you make that choice come from and can you really take credit for believing in the same things anyone else who might grew up as you and read the same books did…?

I'm not taking credit. I'm blessed to have opportunities to learn. I'm in no way superior to someone in some Islamist state forced to wear a burka, be subservient to her husband without educational opportunities , I'm just lucky.

I mean you claim that you’re wise for not listening to church leaders.

No. There's not much wisdom necessary, any idiot can realize a scam if they take the time to consider what's being sold. My 5yo step daughter understands Santa is BS for instance.

But another interpretation is that you’re arrogant and you refuse to contemplate any truth in what they say at all.

I've contemplated religion that's how I realize it's dumb. Atheists generally understand religion more than believers.

Instead you get your truth from books. But you might also just be cherry picking things that confirm your already-had, deeply held beliefs.

I try to understand the truth as ignorance leads to pain. I'm far from perfect and have my own biases.

Is it really you choosing, or is that just a story you believe in so that you can justify your individualism and arrogance?

I don't need to justify my individualism. It is

As for arrogant that's your interpretation. I care about people are don't like to see them misled is another.

After all it’s pretty freaking arrogant to believe religious people have all had “purpose” spoonfed to them.

That's what church and sermons are

. But people who grow up in a community believing in the community’s values is so normal that it applies to you too, Narzy boy.

Stop calling me that it's icky

 

[Farm Boy]

I've contemplated religion that's how I realize it's dumb. Atheists generally understand religion more than believers.

This gets funnier every time you type it.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Believers famously never contemplate religion