The fine-tuning argument for God's existence

[Tigranes]

You're quite right, and the notion that the curses of Genesis 3 are meant to be permanent even according to the text itself is pretty shaky anyway. They are probably meant to be a temporary curse, which lasts until the time of Abraham, with whom God makes a new covenant that revokes the old curse and replaces it with a blessing (Genesis 12:2-3).

Unfortunately, we would need to wait until the last chapter of the last book to see no curse at all. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him (Rev 22:3)

Those who already redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb are free from curse even now: Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree. For the rest of the people curse is still there -- He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

The rest of the ground and creation is still suffering, until now, until the second coming of our Lord. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

One freezing winter morning you can walk outside and see a poor sparrow, without a little leg, bleeding -- it froze to the wire overnight and sparrow lost it's leg trying to get free. You bet that the entire creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth every single day, but everything that has the beginning will have an end as well. Death and pain will not reign forever. And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.

 

[Plotinus]

If the curse of Genesis 3 remains, but not for Christians, why do Christians have to work just as hard as non-Christians, and why do they suffer just as much pain in childbirth?

The line from Galatians 3:13 that you quote doesn't refer to the curse of Genesis 3. It refers quite explicitly to the curse of the Law, which is a different thing. The "labour pains" of Romans 8:22-23 are not a reference to any curse, but are eschatological in nature, referring to the imminent parousia. They are future-looking, not backward-looking; they are caused by the irruption of God's kingdom, not by the past sin of humanity. They are positive, not negative.

 

[Tigranes]

a morally perfect god created sin?

No. He has created rocks, who cannot live, cannot think, and cannot sin. He has created plants that cannot think and cannot sin. He has created animals that cannot sin. And he has created you -- who can do everything what you chose. The greater is freedom, the more possibility to abuse it. If you chose it. And we do.

 

[Tigranes]

If the curse of Genesis 3 remains, but not for Christians, why do Christians have to work just as hard as non-Christians, and why do they suffer just as much pain in childbirth?

The line from Galatians 3:13 that you quote doesn't refer to the curse of Genesis 3. It refers quite explicitly to the curse of the Law, which is a different thing. The "labour pains" of Romans 8:22-23 are not a reference to any curse, but are eschatological in nature, referring to the imminent parousia. They are future-looking, not backward-looking; they are caused by the irruption of God's kingdom, not by the past sin of humanity. They are positive, not negative.

The main curse is the curse of the second death. From the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.
God creates reality by his Word. Everything He says becomes a law with the seven seals on it and it takes Lamb for the Universal spiritual "quantum tunnelling" to happen. Real second death is not the freedom from pain, like the first death, but continuous pain in spiritual world, which shadows we can see in material world. So real original law was: you disobey -- you die. However two things are above the law, or rather provide for local spiritual "quantum tunnelling": pain of the innocents and love. The curse of Gen 3, bad as it was, in fact sets in the motion the process for the liberation from the second death, according to the law in Gen 2. Not only Jesus will destroy the head of the devil, but also hard work of the man and pain of the childbirth of the woman will be taken into consideration during the last judgement. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

Christianity is the only religion with suffering God, that's why it provides very good indications to believe it is the true one. While Christians are still in this world they are visible Body of Christ, when they act like Him. Therefore any sufferings of innocents Christians are sufferings of Most Holy Body of God, and will have reward in Heaven, perhaps in form of being able to ask for loved once, who are otherwise are not eligible for salvation.

I am not sure which fathers of Church are authoritative enough for you to settle interpretations of scriptures in Galatians, but I will look into it, if it is really important for this topic.

 

[Arakhor]

Straight off the top of my head, Odin hung upside down from a tree for nine days to learn spiritual insight and plucked out one of his eyes to gain foresight. Quite apart from the fact that you clearly believe the Genesis story to be a factual account, I'm sure we could find other examples of a "suffering God", if you mean the Christian example to be Jesus dying on the cross.

 

[Borachio]

According to Bhagavata Purana some believe that Krishna was born without a sexual union, by “mental transmission” from the mind of Vasudeva into the womb of Devaki, his mother. Christ and Krishna were called both God and the Son of God. Both were sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man. Both were called Savior, and the second person of the Trinity. Krishna’s adoptive human father was also a carpenter. A spirit or ghost was their actual father. Krishna and Jesus were of royal descent. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star. Angels in both cases issued a warning that the local dictator planned to kill the baby and had issued a decree for his assassination. The parents fled. Mary and Joseph stayed in Muturea; Krishna’s parents stayed in Mathura. Both Christ and Krishna withdrew to the wilderness as adults, and fasted. Both were identified as “the seed of the woman bruising the serpent’s head.” Jesus was called “the lion of the tribe of Judah.” Krishna was called “the lion of the tribe of Saki.” Both claimed: “I am the Resurrection.” Both were “without sin.” Both were god-men: being considered both human and divine. Both performed many miracles, including the healing of disease. One of the first miracles that both performed was to make a leper whole. Each cured “all manner of diseases.” Both cast out indwelling demons, and raised the dead. Both selected disciples to spread his teachings. Both were meek, and merciful. Both were criticized for associating with sinners. Both celebrated a last supper. Both forgave his enemies. Both were crucified and both were resurrected.

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

 

[warpus]

Christianity is the only religion with suffering God,

Assuming the above is true, (which it doesn't seem to be in any way, but let's assume that it is)

that's why it provides very good indications to believe it is the true one.

what exactly leads you to that conclusion?

 

[Arakhor]

I'm not sure that Listverse article is terribly credible, to be honest.

 

[Borachio]

I agree. I don't think it is.

But I don't have a copy of the Bhagavata - an incredibly long book - to hand to verify it.

And another source relates that Krishna was sitting meditating in a forest when a hunter accidentally shot him in the foot, wounding him fatally. Whereupon Krishna forgave him before perishing.

 

[Arakhor]

I'm sure that there are very similar connections between the two, but that article seemed to go out of its way to magnify every possible similarity that they could find.

 

[Borachio]

I'd go further, and say that the authors may even have invented some of it.

Or it could be that the NT story isn't particularly unique.

I think the Golden Bough had something to say about the sacrifice of a king. It's a common enough trope. And martyrdom is very popular.

 

[Unicorny]

Not sure what is worse: an atheist or a christian.

There's ample evidence which demonstrates conclusively that the New Testament scriptures were severely altered by the Church of Rome. Women are cursed? Laughable to say the least. The Bible was the book of God in its original form but it no longer exists in this world for it has been tampered with and altered overtime - anyone can spot the obvious flaws within and the illogical assertions upon a first reading.

 

[Borachio]

How about a Christian atheist?


Link to video.

(I'm rapidly becoming obsessed with this video, btw. What on earth does it mean?)

 

[Unicorny]

How about a Christian atheist?

Bingo

 

[Arakhor]

Not sure what is worse: an atheist or a christian.

You're the spokesman for the local Muslim Outreach Programme, I see.

 

[Unicorny]

You're the spokesman for the local Muslim Outreach Programme, I see.

Richard Dawkins put it best when describing the Old Testament: "“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

That's what happens when humans tamper with and alter the text to their whim; many are misguided and misled

Anyway, let's not derail this thread

 

[Borachio]

Bingo

So, we've got what? An atheist, a Christian, and a Muslim walk into a bar...

The Muslim was lost.

 

[Tigranes]

Assuming the above is true, (which it doesn't seem to be in any way, but let's assume that it is)



what exactly leads you to that conclusion?

The evil in the world? Allah is watching down promising heaven and hell, Buddha advocating Nirvana, Krishna promising bad karma, atheists removing prayer from schools (since 1963 violent crime has increased 544% in USA). Only Jesus can say -- Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
This implies that everything you do people in person -- you do to God in person.

Ever heard of the criminal reformed because atheism touched his heart?

 

[Perfection]

Ever heard of the criminal reformed because atheism touched his heart?

Atheists tend not to go there in the first place.

 

[El_Machinae]

Richard Dawkins put it best when describing the Old Testament: "“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

That's what happens when humans tamper with and alter the text to their whim; many are misguided and misled

Anyway, let's not derail this thread

What's in the Old Testament that the Qur'an says God didn't do?