The hell is wrong with you, Catalonia?!

[Yeekim]

So... Estonian parliament is currently debating a "partnership law" that would grant state recognition to same-sex couples.
Stephen Fry wrote a column about it, if anyone wants to read:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...stians-fight-estonian-gay-rights-9775793.html

The issue has proven deeply divisive (what a surprise!), with majority (~60%) of population against the law according to latest polls, with MPs broadly in favor. Both pro and con campaigns are in full swing, with opposition, among other stuff, trotting out same tired arguments about how this is eventually going to lead to legalization of pedophilia & necrophilia, obligatory homo-worship, persecution of straight people etc. On a local forum, a guy writes that "Catalonia has already criminalized heterosexuality and done away with presumption of innocence for heterosexuals" - totally ridiculous on the face of it. So I kindly ask him to quit smoking whatever he is smoking. Well. Turns out he can back up at least half of his claim.
http://www.thelocal.es/20141003/catalonia-passes-divisive-anti-homophobia-law

In a first ever for Spain, the Catalan Parliament approved on Thursday a law which will punish those who attack gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals with fines of up to €14,000 ($17,700). The vote received the backing of left-wing groups but was opposed by Catalan nationalists Unió and regional representatives of Spain’s ruling conservative Popular Party (PP). The latter are against aspects of the bill which place emphasis on “positive discrimination” and a clause which states that the person accused of homophobia will have to prove his or her innocence, rather than being presumed innocent until proven guilty as is usually the case.

I didn't even feel like pointing out that he was still wildly exaggerating with the other half. Instead, I felt compelled to admit his term GayStapo describes such legislators pretty damn well.

So. The hell is wrong with you Catalonia? And the hell is wrong with your LGBT people, specifically? Way to shoot yourself in the foot, deliberately undermining basic legal rights you might owe a thing or two. And what wonderful PR!

 

[classical_hero]

This is exactly what we said would happen. But we were told we were overreacting.

 

[Tahuti]

Gay people are like holy cows: Society venerates them as shining examples, so you shall not eat them or hurt them, lest unique punishments will be brought upon. Okay, I agree with the "not eat them or hurt them" part.

 

[red_elk]

The entire idea of positive discrimination is IMO craziness, to put it mildly. Positive or negative, it is still a legalized discrimination, in this case, of majority instead of minority.

 

[Snorrius]

So. The hell is wrong with you Catalonia? And the hell is wrong with your LGBT people, specifically? Way to shoot yourself in the foot, deliberately undermining basic legal rights you might owe a thing or two. And what wonderful PR!

Basically, EU is going USSR route. The destination is a soft totalitarian entity without brutality but with "soft power" used to install in a citizens a set of quasi-religious dogmas. I think this is a normal evolution for Leftist states which were able to get after equalizing stage without collapse.

 

[Hygro]

Positive discrimination is not categorically bad, just requires oversight and frequent revisiting. The goal is of course zero discrimination and at some point, positive discrimination gets in the way of the final push. I don't think we're at the final push, yet.

The final push being that reliably, self-sustaining cascading transition from an unequitable society into an equitable one.

 

[red_elk]

The final push being that reliably, self-sustaining cascading transition from an unequitable society into an equitable one.

But what is the criteria to assess whether society reached an equitable stage, whatever that means? You can, for example, introduce a quota to have mandatory 50% of women in tank forces and 50% of men in kindergarten teachers, but I don't think the equitable society is the one which achieved such percentages. I think the only way to get rid of discrimination is legal abolishing all forms of it, wherever possible.

 

[Yeekim]

But what is the criteria to assess whether society reached an equitable stage, whatever that means? You can, for example, introduce a quota to have mandatory 50% of women in tank forces and 50% of men in kindergarten teachers, but I don't think the equitable society is the one which achieved such percentages. I think the only way to get rid of discrimination is legal abolishing all forms of it, wherever possible.

I take the rare opportunity to 100% agree with you.

 

[NovaKart]

Do they mean physical attacks like hate crimes? Does this also apply to religious and ethnic minorities?

 

[Hygro]

But what is the criteria to assess whether society reached an equitable stage, whatever that means? You can, for example, introduce a quota to have mandatory 50% of women in tank forces and 50% of men in kindergarten teachers, but I don't think the equitable society is the one which achieved such percentages. I think the only way to get rid of discrimination is legal abolishing all forms of it, wherever possible.

It's a work in progress that we're figuring out as we go.

 

[Tahuti]

Positive discrimination is not categorically bad, just requires oversight and frequent revisiting.

Institutions and societies must be allowed to evolve. If it works, don't fix it. Positive discrimination is an example of "it it ain't broke, fix it nevertheless".

 

[John Walker]

the person accused of homophobia will have to prove his or her innocence, rather than being presumed innocent until proven guilty as is usually the case.

I'm a law student and I tell you that this is madness, contrary to any civilized standards.

This is nothing but the return to inquisitorial system of justice. Fortunately international tribunals will not let anyone be convicted just for not proving their innocence. At least as long as Cataonia is part of the EU.

 

[Camikaze]

Prove his or her innocence of what exactly? Of the attack forming the basis of the charge, or the specific intent? Many constructive crimes already exist, and there are a myriad of circumstances in which a shifted burden applies. At least in common law countries, and presumably the same applies to more inquisitorial systems. Without more info, this sounds like a complete beat up.

 

[Tee Kay]

inquisitorial

Hehe.

By the way I'm waiting for JoanK to comment on this. It sounds ridiculous on the face of things but we're only hearing things from one angle at the moment.

 

[Yeekim]

It sounds ridiculous on the face of things but we're only hearing things from one angle at the moment.

I was hoping this might be some sort of misinterpretation/misreporting, but couldn't find any sources to corroborate this hope.

I'm a law student and I tell you that this is madness, contrary to any civilized standards.

I'm a lawyer myself, but you don't need to be one to agree. "Civilized standards" is overstating it, even. The principle goes back to goddamn antiquity.

 

[NovaKart]

How does this differ from hate speech laws or hate crime laws in other countries? Is it the proving one's innocence factor?

 

[Tahuti]

You've already beat up someone, that should be what matters. The reason why one did this is irrelevant, except for the purpose of having mitigating circumstances.

 

[Arakhor]

This is exactly what we said would happen. But we were told we were overreacting.

You predicted that extremist lunatics would attempt something like this? Congratulations - you clearly understand the extremist mindset far more than I do.

 

[Algeroth]

Basically, EU is going USSR route.

We wil bring poverty, misery, slavery and destrucion of untold lives upon Russian people for decades to come?

Hell yeah?

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Nothing to see here, keep moving.

In Spain, like in most European countries there are a number of cases where the onus probandi (sorry for the latinism) is on the defendant. For instance in patent law or commerce law. In some cases of discrimination and sexual abuse too. However such inversion cant EVER be applied if we are speaking about a criminal case, such thing would be inconstitutional and then this law would be revoked by the Spanish Constitutional Court, since catalonia is still in Spain till proved otherwise...