The hypocrisy of arms exports

[otago]

Damn the EU and the USA believe in utter hypocrisy, whining that if Russia sends those helicopters to Syria they will be used on civilians.
Listening to both the EU and the USA they would have one believe that NONE of the weapons they export have ever been used on civilians.

Well the EU and the USA could do a Israel and board that ship to stop it.
Of course it will not happen if the Russians escort the ship with naval vessels which it seems they will

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Which is the greater tragedy- hypocrisy, or the death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians?

The USA is hardly a saint. That's a point conceded. So why does that mean we should encourage the arming of tyrants currently engaged in massacres of civilians?

 

[GoodSarmatian]

It's the old drug dealer justification. If they don't buy it from us (Germany) they'll buy it from someone else (USA) who doesn't have those qualms.
Last year the German government has really outdone itself when it sold Leopard 2 tanks -some of them outfitted for 'crowd control'- to Saudi Arabia while praising the democratic revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt at the same time.

 

[Grisu]

yeah, the problem isn't that they object the russian arms sales (they're actually right in this), the problem is that they (or I should say we, since Switzerland is in no way better in this) don't apply the same standards to ourselves.

 

[Borachio]

This makes me really angry.

Arms_industry
(Notice too that Israel is the number 10 arms exporter, but number 97 in terms of population. This is just interesting and may simply reflect its precarious position.)

And the advertising of "combat proved" weaponry sickens me.

This is a major world industry with no conceivable benefit, that I can see.

 

[otago]

Which is the greater tragedy- hypocrisy, or the death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians?

The USA is hardly a saint. That's a point conceded. So why does that mean we should encourage the arming of tyrants currently engaged in massacres of civilians?

The USA and the EU should grow a pair and board a Russian flagged ship to stop the helicopters reaching Syria ?

 

[Core Imposter]

Absent arms the people would be prone before tyrants.

 

[Leoreth]

Arms are what's giving tyrants their power.

 

[MobBoss]

Damn the EU and the USA believe in utter hypocrisy, whining that if Russia sends those helicopters to Syria they will be used on civilians.
Listening to both the EU and the USA they would have one believe that NONE of the weapons they export have ever been used on civilians.

Well the EU and the USA could do a Israel and board that ship to stop it.
Of course it will not happen if the Russians escort the ship with naval vessels which it seems they will

I think someone doesnt exactly get the idea of the politics involved here. So what if it is hypocrisy? Isnt the entire point of international politics to increase ones power and influence in the world? What the USA or EU has done doesnt change the fact that Syria, right now, is killing its own people. Are you ok with that?

 

[Antilogic]

Arms are what's giving tyrants their power.

This. Those tyrants have some awfully shiny toys that are keeping people down.

 

[Borachio]

Anyway, I thought those helicopters were originally in Syria, but had been sent to Russia for servicing. Maybe I have this wrong.

 

[Dachs]

Isnt the entire point of international politics to increase ones power and influence in the world?

No.

vcl

 

[Leoreth]

This. Those tyrants have some awfully shiny toys that are keeping people down.

Or even better: keep people in their complacent belief that keeping two dozen rifles in the basement will keep them safe from tyranny when it sets its mind to actually ... tyrannize people.

[Three times "keep" ... I'd make a bad oratory]

 

[MobBoss]

No.

vcl

I was being very general Dachs. If you want to elaborate more, by all means go ahead.

 

[Dachs]

I was being very general Dachs. If you want to elaborate more, by all means go ahead.

You were attempting to be general but instead went overly specific. Increasing power and influence is out of the question for most of the states engaged in international politics, as well as for many of the non-state actors. Many, if not most, of them do not seriously try to do so.

 

[MobBoss]

You were attempting to be general but instead went overly specific. Increasing power and influence is out of the question for most of the states engaged in international politics, as well as for many of the non-state actors. Many, if not most, of them do not seriously try to do so.

I acknowledge I should have used 'part of' instead of 'entire'. What would you add to that? Increase commerce and maintain peace?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Which is the greater tragedy- hypocrisy, or the death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians?

Perhaps the US government should ask that very question with every single arms shipment and military aid grant. Take Israel and other countries in that region, as well as many Latin countries, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_aid

Egypt's $1.3 billion annual military aid package helped make its army a “capable, professional force,” which proved to have “incalculable value” in the Hosni Mubarak crisis in 2011.[6]

Since 1974, the largest recipient of U.S. foreign military assistance has most often been Israel. It received a total of $53.6 billion in U.S. military grants between 1949 and 2007. Over the past decade, the U.S. has transferred more than $17 billion in military aid to Israel.

U.S. aid to Israel[citation needed]

Year FMF $U.S. millions
2001 1,975.6
2002 2,040.0
2003 3,086.4
2004 2,147.3
2005 2,202.2
2006 2,257.0
2007 2,340.0
2008 2,380.0
2009 2,550.0
2010 2,775.0

Currently, Congress wants to cut defense spending by lowering the amount of aid given to foreign militaries.[7] Money saved from proposed cutbacks could benefit the U.S. military, which is closing military bases, freezing pay raises for service members, and cutting the defense budget by $78 billion for 2011.[7]

Particular targets of criticism include

Funds appropriated to the State Department and Defense Department represent the vast majority of unclassified military aid and assistance. The public does not have any way of tracking classified programs administered by the U.S. intelligence community.[8]

The U.S. provides assistance to the Colombian army which has documented ties with paramilitary groups on the U.S. terrorist list.

Foreign aid often aids the giver, not the recipient.

Corruption is a major problem. Funds often go directly to leaders who may not share the aid with citizens.

The United States gives the same amount of money to its top five aid recipients as they give to the rest of the world.[9]
Military aid went to Latin American dictatorships in the second half of the 20th century.

Tunisia has received military aid for several helicopters despite blatant human rights violations, abuse of power and the existence of a police state.[10]

If the aid to Egypt helped during the "Mubarak crisis", what about all previous years when the Egyptian military tortured and murdered thousands of people, including many "terrorists" handed over to them by the CIA?

 

[otago]

I think someone doesnt exactly get the idea of the politics involved here. So what if it is hypocrisy? Isnt the entire point of international politics to increase ones power and influence in the world? What the USA or EU has done doesnt change the fact that Syria, right now, is killing its own people. Are you ok with that?

About OK as I was with the USA supplying aircraft to the Argentinian military to toss civilians out of over water.
So, should the USA grow a pair and take the Russians on or would that be too dangerous ?

 

[Dachs]

So, should the USA grow a pair and take the Russians on or would that be too dangerous ?

I don't think that the American government believes that Syria is worth a shooting war with Russia.

 

[otago]

I don't think that the American government believes that Syria is worth a shooting war with Russia.

Yes, Russia does have a bit more hitting power than Grenada.
Strange though, we had the right wing types arguing that Iraq had to be invaded to save the people from the regime, the difference between Iraq and Syria is what ?
The Russians are Syrian allies ?