[RD] The Israel/Palestine Quarantine Thread

[Timsup2nothin]

Yea maybe 10? I mean the problem is quibbling over money when the inevitable death toll is so terrible anyways.

Idk. My hopelessness for the situation is betrayed by my proposal. It just seems we have a conquering taking place in super slow motion. If they are going to do it just finish it already.

Although this also leads me to play this out and it still doesn't change much for the rest of the world. Israel will still play the cornered lion, US evangelicals will still let the play havoc with our foreign policy, and Arabs will still want the erasure of the "Zionist Entity".

It may be too late, definitely. The Zionist entity pushed a gigantic cost off to their neighbors that has accumulated interest for decades. Even though monetary penalty seems better than continuing death and destruction the discussion of just what would constitute 'fair recompense' is enormously complex.

 

[Estebonrober]

It may be too late, definitely. The Zionist entity pushed a gigantic cost off to their neighbors that has accumulated interest for decades. Even though monetary penalty seems better than continuing death and destruction the discussion of just what would constitute 'fair recompense' is enormously complex.

FWIW I support the idea of a Israel, but this current incarnation seems to becoming increasingly evil. Maybe I was just young before and now I know more, but it seems Israel wasn't always in this super settler and occasional erasure of village mode? Or has that been going on the whole time and I'm only now aware of it (since 07ish)?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

FWIW I support the idea of a Israel, but this current incarnation seems to becoming increasingly evil. Maybe I was just young before and now I know more, but it seems Israel wasn't always in this super settler and occasional erasure of village mode? Or has that been going on the whole time and I'm only now aware of it (since 07ish)?

That was more or less the founding principle from day one.

 

[cardgame]

Day one was a fight for existence

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Day one was a fight for existence

If we define "existence" as "continuing to hold property that had been stolen and delivered to them," then, yeah. Note that I'm not actually holding them responsible for the theft, but that doesn't make their fight quite as noble as they like to make it out to be.

 

[cardgame]

I mean, the Brits held it since 1919 right? That's a lot more legit than day one claims. Definitely long enough to own it more than merely occupy it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I mean, the Brits held it since 1919 right? That's a lot more legit than day one claims. Definitely long enough to own it more than merely occupy it.

Like most "Brit held" territory the displacement of the native population wasn't terribly extreme. In most places the Brits gave up the locals were the beneficiaries, rather than being shifted from 'second class not citizens' to 'enemies of the new state subject to summary execution if you don't go...well, somewhere...anywhere really but you can't stay here.'

 

[Cutlass]

So what is the path to peace. I firmly believe that Israel would lose whatever little of their remaining high ground if Hamas would just renounce it's mission, and stopped firing missiles. Everyone agree that they don't really do much. I would think the Media is a much better weapon at this point.

I don't really think there is one. Not anymore. If, after the Israel-Egypt peace process, Israel kept their word, and did what they promised to do, maybe there was a chance. But Israel has been proving year after year that they will accept peace on no terms but complete ethnic cleansing of all the lands they should choose to take.

But on the other side, the multiple Arab states don't want peace either. The Palestinians cannot find homes in the other Arab states, for those states will not allow them to. The Arab states are doing as much to provoke, and to make desperate, the Palestinians as the Israelis are.

The leadership of none of the involved parties is willing to have peace. On any terms. Maybe once they were. Now they are not. I tend to think that Israel will eventually be destroyed. And they brought it on themselves.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That's pretty much my assessment as well.

 

[Silurian]

Why should the Arab states be responsible for the Palestinians.

If a group called the Aztecs had a war in Mexico and half the Mexicans were displaced into the USA what would the USA do if it could not defeat the Aztecs.

 

[Cutlass]

You'd think that in some time in the past 70 years they might have shown some humanity.

In your example, the number of Mexicans is trivial compared to the Americans, and the Americans are keeping them confined to refugee camps on the border and arming them rather than feeding them.

Refugees are a net profit to the host country after the first 20 years or so. But keeping them in a perpetual state of being refugees is not just costly in human terms, it's also costly in economic terms.

 

[tetley]

The word "terrorism" originally traced back to Israeli David Ben Gurion, who self-proclaimed himself "the father of terrorism". It was referring to acts of hooliganism, pre-1948, to run out the Palestinian population in order to zionize the region. They would contaminate the water and stuff. So yes, terrorism was the plan from even before day one. Prior to that, terrorism was barely even a word.

 

[Phrossack]

I don't really think there is one. Not anymore. If, after the Israel-Egypt peace process, Israel kept their word, and did what they promised to do, maybe there was a chance. But Israel has been proving year after year that they will accept peace on no terms but complete ethnic cleansing of all the lands they should choose to take.

But on the other side, the multiple Arab states don't want peace either. The Palestinians cannot find homes in the other Arab states, for those states will not allow them to. The Arab states are doing as much to provoke, and to make desperate, the Palestinians as the Israelis are.

The leadership of none of the involved parties is willing to have peace. On any terms. Maybe once they were. Now they are not. I tend to think that Israel will eventually be destroyed. And they brought it on themselves.

I can't imagine Israel being destroyed in the next few decades. Its military is excellent, its economy strong, its neighbors pitifully weak, and the Israeli government has a willingness to drive out non-Jews if ever their numbers threaten Jewish rule in Israel. How could Israel ever fall under the current conditions?

 

[Silurian]

You'd think that in some time in the past 70 years they might have shown some humanity.

In your example, the number of Mexicans is trivial compared to the Americans, and the Americans are keeping them confined to refugee camps on the border and arming them rather than feeding them.

Refugees are a net profit to the host country after the first 20 years or so. But keeping them in a perpetual state of being refugees is not just costly in human terms, it's also costly in economic terms.

The population of Mexico is 124m and the USA 327m.
In 1948 85% of the Palestinians were displaced.
If 25% of Mexicans (30m) moved to the USA do you really think that the USA would think that the number is trivial.

Do you really think that the 30m Mexicans displaced into the US would be happy and would not cause problems between the USA and the Aztec state.
If they were given US citizenship they would greatly change the political composition of many US states.

 

[Snerk]

I can't imagine Israel being destroyed in the next few decades. Its military is excellent, its economy strong, its neighbors pitifully weak, and the Israeli government has a willingness to drive out non-Jews if ever their numbers threaten Jewish rule in Israel. How could Israel ever fall under the current conditions?

Yeah I don't see it either. Israel is a military superpower in the middle east region. It has a relatively strong economy and a population with a high tolerance for militaristic aggressivism. Even if USA should terminate their unconditional support of Israel through either a change in popular opinion or an overall decline as a global superpower, I don't see why any country or people that would possibly be regarded as a threat to Israel would then rise up to that kind of militaristic capabilities. I think another century of asymmetric violence and oppression is much more likely. Obviously things would eventually change as all things must. But for a more relatable timespan, I doubt it.

 

[rah]

If the US withdrew it's support I think there are more countries in the Middle East that would take a more active role in it's destruction.,

 

[Snerk]

If the US withdrew it's support I think there are more countries in the Middle East that would take a more active role in it's destruction.,

Those countries all have terrible track records when it comes to fighting successful wars. The greatest future wildcard for Israel is the same for all other desert belt nations: global warming and water shortage.

 

[rah]

Sometimes quantity beats quality. Especially if Iran takes a more hands-on approach instead of just using proxies.

 

[Farm Boy]

A full bore military conflict between Iran and Israel is a nuclear war.

 

[rah]

And Israel would then be destroyed.