The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[Dirk1302]

Liberalism would be ok to win here but it's not as important as with a 6 city high tech empire where you're hell bent on that renaissance tech lead to make up for the city deficit. In a normal game lib effect is hardly evident anymore around AL as everyone has traded those renaissance techs with each other. Here it's still a bit more valuable than in those games.

 

[Duckweed]

Plan for next set

Tech path:
Trade for math->CS->Fishing

We need many settlers to settler our land and gifting cities for AIs, I'm going to whip them from the resource city and copper city, I feel guilty of not using those food plus in double efficient way.

HE in resource city, NE in capital -- Not in my set

We have nothing to deal with the barbarian axe in the open field, let it pillage and suicide on the city wall.

Questions:
1. Do we want to gift cities to Ragnar/Monty?
2. What site do you want to settle the horse city?
3. Next GS -- academy in copper city or save for bulb (we need 3 GS)

 

[bestsss]

Keep zero slider and try trading for Math next couple of turns. I am not sure why Willem doesn't wish to trade for lit (he has not researched it either). Need to check that.

about barb axe: chariot from resource city (need to check), pillaging will cost us the fine deal w/ Churchill.
---

>>1. Do we want to gift cities to Ragnar/Monty?
No, we can't trade to Willem, which is very bad. I hope we get Conf., Ragnar is a nice dude and will spread it. So we get voting points instead.

>>2. What site do you want to settle the horse city?
Depends, if will be using it for drafting I suppose.

>>3. Next GS -- academy in copper city or save for bulb (we need 3 GS)
I'd bulb one education and that's all. So academy.

 

[obsolete]

About the AI not trading math. I assume they have a chunk of literature already researched, so this could be why? Or maybe there is a bug in teams, and one of the AI hasn't been tipped off that the Hanging Gardens is already built?

 

[Dirk1302]

@Duckweed,
1. Yes but scout out some places first. I wouldn't hurt our cities too bad whipping away prime tiles for this goal whip unimproved tiles away. And i'd settle the 3 best spots in our own empire first before gifting more cities to ai..

2. nw leaving room for a fourth city some 5 tiles s later.

3. Build an academy in Viay. Lib would be nice is but it's no certainty here, don't need it as bad as in other games i think. Academy is very good to have early in Viay. After that we can see how it all goes if after paper no one's near lib we could use some GS on lib path. Kushans can be made into a a big commerce city as well so academy there later is not bad either.

Building academies is better than usual because everyone on the map has to do more self research in this game. Bulbing is worse for the same reason.

@obsolete,
I didn't have the impression that Willem had beakers into lit, i could get quite a few minor techs for it. If he'd had only 1 turn in it we would have gotten less. I think Math is just a tad too expensive atm. So i suggest 1 turn cashing gold.

@bestsss, what do you mean we can't trade to Willem?

 

[bestsss]

if we gift city to monty/ragnar - auto -4 traded w/ worst enemies, forget about trading.
after the war we can switch to hindu and possible annoy them, turn into the worst enemies (ourselves), gift the city, switch to non-religion but it's risky...

 

[shyuhe]

I would prefer to avoid the -4 from gifting a city as well... Although that kind of limits our diplomatic options for currying favor with the nuts. We're fine for now since they're busy but once they take peace, it'll get complicated again.

 

[bestsss]

odds to get declared by them is only if Churchill's power prevents that, they are land target with worse attitude (and possibly close cities overall) and possibly more resources than us. It's quite safe.
If we get Conf. (pretty positive ragnar is in spread mode, looking at the 3 religions cities) we can vote for them. Ragnar should be pleased and we can beg money.
---
gonna check the case w/ math, to me (1st glance) the literature has not been started researching.

 

[bestsss]

The deal w/ the lit->math.
Just checked: i was misled we have researched anything from it.
But literature is very slightly cheaper than math (in this setup), I think w/ 30 gold (edit: total, not more) we would have been able to buy it.
So just put the overflow into the math and trade lit->math+gold (we should get some gold for it) the very next turn. Keep the research at 0%.

 

[obsolete]

...and possibly more resources than us.

I was not aware the AI is supposed to be smart enough to make target decisions based partially on available resources. This variable is probably insignificant anyway.

 

[Dirk1302]

if we gift city to monty/ragnar - auto -4 traded w/ worst enemies, forget about trading.
after the war we can switch to hindu and possible annoy them, turn into the worst enemies (ourselves), gift the city, switch to non-religion but it's risky...

Ok so after the city gift to Ragnar we can't trade with them. That's too expensive. Better switch Hindu when peace breaks out and beg from Monty. If that works we're fine since Churchill/Willem won't have enough power to deflect declaration after 10 turns forced peace. If not we have to sweat out those 10 turns. Ragnar will probably be pleased with us anyway somewhere in the future so gifting him a city isn't that important long term.

 

[bestsss]

I was not aware the AI is supposed to be smart enough to make target decisions based partially on available resources. This variable is probably insignificant anyway.

Ohh, it's bloody significant, actually w/ everything else similar, closeness/attitude, this is what matters. Seriously.
(if anyone interested) I can show how exactly AIs evaluate the war weight - that's after they are ok to attack an enemy (attitude/power).
[In quick immortal game (shyuhe) I tried to explain how's done.]
--
if we vote for them, ragnar will be pleased.

 

[Duckweed]

OK

Horse city on NW of the horse to include the fish tile, this can be a good site for drafting.

next GS for academy in Vijay

about barb axe: chariot from resource city (need to check), pillaging will cost us the fine deal w/ Churchill.

Good point, although we still can't stop his pillage of the deer tile.

@Duckweed,
I wouldn't hurt our cities too bad whipping away prime tiles for this goal whip unimproved tiles away.

This is partially right. We don't want to whip away food and high yield tiles, but this does not include mined hill tiles. It's very efficient to do 3 whip on resource city. through whipping, even an unimproved grassland forest tile gives higher hammer yield than a mined plain hill. Vijay has 11 food plus while working on 8 improved tiles, it takes 7 turns to produce a settler. On the other hand, it can grow to size 11 in 5 turns, by 3 pop whip a settler, it can produce a settler in the same speed while getting more hammers.


I'm going to play tonight, so expect report tomorrow.

 

[bestsss]

>>Good point, although we still can't stop his pillage of the deer tile.
You can do 2 pop (unefficient whip) or 1 pop (switch this turn to chariot, rush next) and sacrifice the archer, move it to the forest/west of the barb, that would my choice.
if the barb goes to pillage kill him. Move the swordsman+archer from the cottage/horse, just in case.

 

[obsolete]

It's very efficient to do 3 whip on resource city.

Well I'd say! 3.3 turn-unhappy per pop.

 

[Duckweed]

Well I'd say! 3.3 turn-unhappy per pop.

What? Worry about unhappiness in city with zero whipping unhappiness and under HR! Moreover, we need to those settlers sooner than later!

 

[Dirk1302]

It depends a bit on regrow rate too but if i've read the same about plain hill mines vs grass forests. Unhappy is not a problem. I don't have save at hand but if regrow rate = say 2/2/3 then you lose 2*12 + 2*8 + 3*4 = 52H while gaining 90 immediately. Of course that should also be compared with growing the city to 9 or 10, then whipping. You don't lose the Hammers from Plain hills this time but now your regrowth rate is slower. This situation is a bit harder to calculate but if the city regrows as fast as i sketched above (and i seem to remember it grows pretty fast) then i think Duckweed's right.

Are we not prepared to sac some archers on the barb axe taking it out with sword? Maybe not, we won't lose the deer for long but that deal we're having now is pretty good.

 

[bestsss]

^I'd seriously sac. one archer in the forest whip a chariot (can send it to explore toku's land afterwards, in the worst case), it's quite fail proof. Otherwise we have to sac 2 archers most likely.

 

[Dirk1302]

That's ok too, don't think we should let the deer be pillaged.

 

[bestsss]

(no whipping solution to barb axe)

Checked again, it's possible to finish chariot in 2 turns w/ extra flipping the tiles to prod, so chariot finishes in 2 without using the whip. Side note: click on prevent city growth if trade the wine to willem (I would since the price is ok and we will get another soon) so the city doesn't become very unhappy w/o militia there.