The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

Obsolete, it's possible to have aesthetics in 2 turns. If they sign peace (likely for dogpile since quite a few turns passed) Churchill will take aesthetics for the peace deal.
Also since it was not a total war it's *very* unlikely to end up w/ a vassal deal.

It's a gamble for aesthetics. However, I am a bit split since it's a risky decision, yet I am ok if we can make it in 2 turns and trade for alpha+gold which good make research like free.
Note: no team can trade w/ any other team at the current situation.

Sell deers to Churchill for 9gold and copper to Monty.

------------
@Duckweed:
Joao is like that:

<DeclareWarThemRefuseAttitudeThreshold>ATTITUDE_ANNOYED</DeclareWarThemRefuseAttitudeThreshold>
<DeclareWarRefuseAttitudeThreshold>ATTITUDE_CAUTIOUS</DeclareWarRefuseAttitudeThreshold>

So he will accept bribes only if he is pleased w/ the requester (that's checked 1st) and then he is annoyed w/ the target.
Toku also accept bribes at pleased (this is why we can actually see the effect of the 2nd check) but he declares on anyone who is not friendly. However to accept a deal in team set-up the AIs must agree (all of them) on the condition.
So no team can be bribed to declare on friendly unless contains only Cathy(s) inside.

I sort of like our position, but in the AW game we had tons of wonders w/ Mids/GW pulling us out of the mire.
 
Obsolete, it's possible to have aesthetics in 2 turns.
Click to expand...

Great, looks even better. If we get unlucky in those 2 turns then so be it, but I'd rather be unlucky, then play bad and miss out on a free tech like Alphabet. We need Aesthetics for our Hero Epic anyway.
 
I'm with Duckweed here , our position is fine, don't understand Shyuhe's idea of the game not being winnable at all, i actually think the teams are going rather slow techwise, no one with paper and most without cs even. Taking into account that we get 2* value for everything we research i'm not worried about the tech situation. Diplo seems ok if still a bit shaky too. Most of our goals have been reached, took barbarians, made the gifts etc. We had wonders in that aw game but we didn't do that much with mids, almost all of our techs game from espionage, we were very far behind i that game at some point. Our research here will take off after currency and resource deals here. Could be that the teams need some time and that they're really going to tech like mad later but for now i don't see it.

I fully agree with obsolete that not working the irrigated rice is criminal, either whip the settler, temple or whatever suits your fancy (maybe another worker to finally get those fp's up there) or fine tune the HR happiness a bit better but working a scientist in a non gpp city leaving the rice for the rodents can never be right imo. I don't know how long these gpt deals on resource deals have been open but we should cash in on these immediately and aggressively.

I will set up a more detailed plan from here. Seems best to me to research alpha, if aest's still open after alpha we may try that. It'd be really very bad if we'd go aest and it's not open anymore once we get there, we'd have to research alpha then falling short of money to complete it quickly. Once we have alpha gambling is a bit safer since we'd have a money independent research base in that case. From bestsss's comments it' seems likely that Churchill may have aest either very soon or it may really take a while. Actually i think our position is so good once we have currency (tr's are 3-4 average atm, we get 9 extra) that we don't need any gambling.

Edit: How about the GS, academy seems obvious and it should have been in Viay. But as it is now Capital generates almost twice the research. So short term it's better. The way Viay is not improved, not grown etc is disappointing maybe it was hard to do it but i would have tried my utmost to get those 2 fps improved somewhere along the line and i don't mean only the last 10 turns here .As Delhi is working cottages as well atm and moving the palace is way off i think academy should go there. Seems Delhi is becoming a buro city after all.
 
I am checking if the war can possibly end in 2 turns but dont have a valid answer yet.
We know Willem's team is crushing Monty and that we have 2.5 less land than Willem's team.
It looks 'winning the game' message is related to the land ratio between requester and the team being asked to cease fire.
If the latter has more than 2.5 times land, that's the answer you get. I am a bit surprised by that but it looks one of the reasons it's difficult to broker peace in OCC.

If the team being asked has 'end war' value 2 times higher than the other team, it forwards the request to the winning team. 'End war' value depends on losses/power, the number of the cities of the warring parties AND the type of selected war, dogpiles have lesser effect than total wars.
---
The more I look the more I like going for aesthetics. It can be finished in 2 turns w/ a bit stagnating the growth (shifting to cottages in the new east barb city and some other sub-optimal tiles) for a turn or 2 (the next turn a city goes out of the revolt). And, of course, the academy in the capital.

Aside gaining the alphabet and extra gold we can build the Shwedagon Pagoda for fail cash since I don't think we would be able to run religion and make use of pacifism even we if get it for real.

Another thing is w/ aesthetics we get alphabet earlier actually and can concentrate on building research/Shwedagon. Basically I think we can get currency in Dirk's set.

Forgot: the value of our techology to the AI is mul by 1.5 (not 2).
 
I played an offline game where i was in a team of 2 against teams with 3 members. How would the techcost be there? I could trade aest for alpha + ~250 gold in that game.

I see there are quite a few options for the next set

I wait for the majority on techpath. I think we'll need to decide on how to settle the northern region this turn. We can settle ivory city 1e or 2e from ivory. 2e is a better spot since we'll have fish up earlier, don't think we'll lose ivory since second border pop will take some time in that Ragnar city.Not totally sure may need to check this. 1e of ivory is safer and we will eventually gain control over that Ragnar fp. I think this is better in the end.

Horse spot is very good, we can basically settle 2 ways there. 1 sw of horse grabs some good inland tiles. But here i prefer to settle horse somewhere on the coast probably 1nw of horse and build a third city for the inland tiles. We can pay for all this easily after currency. Inland city can be built 1 nw of sheep.It can borrow sheep or rice as we see fit.4w or 5w of Angle is another prime spot to settle. I think we should scout the southern edge of our empire, maybe there's still something there in the fog.

So

Academy in capital

I think we'll need to settle all those cities asap, these are all good spots, don't know if i can do it this turn since we need currency soon too or maintenance will be out of control.This may entail setting cities to research, i'll try to find some middle ground here.

We may need some extra workers for these cities as well. We have 9 already but there is so much land still to improve that i don't think it's enough.

I think we should do resource deals and OB with all teams, don't think the penalty will be that hefty for resource deals and OB. We need all the trade we can get anyway. We can reconsider if there comes a stop trading request.

It could be worthwhile as i suggested earlier to add a priest to 2 scientists in Delhi to speed up gp production, any thoughts on that. If it's a gs a second academy would not be bad.

I could play tonight if we can agree soon. Or it'll be Wednesday/Thursday.
 
Dirk1302 said:
I played an offline game where i was in a team of 2 against teams with 3 members. How would the techcost be there? I could trade aest for alpha + ~250 gold in that game.
Click to expand...
Was it deity?
How many teams in total?
How many did know aesthetics and how many alphabet?
Also did you have an AI team member. The handicap gets modified by its. I think it uses the average between to set the difficulty modifier for technology...

I suppose normal size map.

Generally speaking each additional team member increases the tech cost by 50%. W/ 3 member the technology is twice more expensive to research.

In this game I think we can get around (less prob) 100gold (which basically pays off almost immediately).

---
on a side note: you can try demanding like 10 gold from joao to avoid consider war vs us for the next 10 turns, can repeat that w/ toku afterwards. Or better 1st toku, if he drops to cautious for border contact.
 
Tech:
Agree with bestsss, Aes in 2 turns. Better safer than nothing.

City spot:
On hill seems better for me. Either 1nw or sw of the Horse is OK.

OB:
OB with Monty/Ragnar is good, but I strongly against OB with Willem/Churchill, especially now Joao switch to Tao. We may do resource trade with Willem/Churchill 10 turns at a time, but I'd like to cancel them every 10 turns to avoid demand from Monty/Ragnar. In the future, we may spam Hindu to Toku to make him convert to Hindu, so that both our neighbor can be pleased with us. Also we may need to scout their land to see whether there are still spots available in the edge so that we can gift a city to Joao, Ragnar, and Monty.

Also as bestsss mentioned, begging for forced peace is very important to let us stay away from war. Hence it would be very good to do this when Monty/Ragnar make peace with Willem/Churchill, this 10 turns is very dangerous for us if we can't do the begging. They can easily crush us with a second attack while we are far away from LB.

Agree with others.

BTW, remember there are a couple archers on hold, which are going to decay, we need them for happiness soon.
 
@bestsss,

Deity huge 18 civs normal speed
i was in team with Zara
4 3 teams
2 2 teams

Everyone knew alpha, no one aest and i traded with a 3-team. It's an interesting format btw, fun to play. Was just fooling around a bit on a huge inland sea. My feeling is that it's not too difficult as your buddy speeds up research so you can take care of rexing/bulbing yourself. But if have yet to play a serious game with this format. Diplo can be very tough in this game, from my tests sofar i got the impression that you often need to build quite a lot of units yourself as your buddy can't help you there.

I'll beg from Toku/Joao, good idea.
 
@Duckweed,

On hill it is then

I'll check the archers, hope they're still in the queue but i'll check in each city.

I have always wondered how much ob does for worst enemy trading. From my own experience it's close to nothing on the modifier but you can get the stop trading demand which would kill the resource trades. We certainly don't need the ob pre currency, i feel we may have to reconsider after currency.

Agree on spamming hindu/scouting lands. I can probably find a scout but i don't think priorities allow much missionary spamming.

I'll check for begging from Monty/Ragnar. Both are cautious atm iirc. If they're both cautious at the time peace breaks out should i switch hindu for 5 turns to beg from Monty if Ragnar isn't pleased by that time? I think that would be best especially if we are in forced peace with Toku/Joao then.

I have input now from obsolete,bestsss,Duckweed and myself and we seem to agree on most things, well not on the techpath but i'll go with the majority here. I'm not sure that my idea of going alpha first is better anyway. Rook is away atm. Shyuhe more or less gave direction in his own set.

Some other points,

Do we optimize tiles to get aest in 2? I think so.

What to research after aest/alpha trade? Math ->currency gives us the discount on currency. Currency->math gives us the extra tr + wealth earlier compensating to some extend for the discount. It would allow for a different path such as currency->col as well. We really need math so probably research it first, don't think tr's fully compensate for the discount and we can always fall back on research production, not as good as wealth but adequate. How about lit btw, can trade it for math i'd think in this format? We would get it before Churchill does.

Another point. What if Churchill/Willem can't fit the deal with gold once we are ready with aest. Wouldn't we get the penalty for we trading? Should i wait in this case?

Maybe some other points come up so playing Wednesday or Thursday may be best. This'll be a complex set to play i feel.
 
^
Tech imo: Math->currency->CoL->CS (we need math)
Perhaps we can fit literature or drama (!) to trade it .

Huge has quite different beaker values + it was monopoly... here we wont yield so much.

Aesthetics in 2 all the way. What's the point to have huge overflow on a tech that doesn't even have full discount bonuses and it's a full gamble to begin with?
Get in 2, trade it->profit :)

Elephant on the hill imo too.

If they cant fit the deal take another tech: fishing/poly (we need poly to research literature) and if need be fit the deal on our part w/ gold.
If they give all the gold better ask a tech and try adding a bit of gold on our part.
I am sure you will get how it works.

Open borders hate depends on the number of the cities of the both teams, it's not great but it adds w/ the time. Since we know Monty for so long there is no danger at the moment. We can open borders w/o threat.

Imo, churchill is most likely after guilds or engineering at the moment. Due to war plan those 2 tech. have the highest natural weight.

If you are going to beg, beg either Toku (pref and very little ~10g, we dont have common border and we have like 5 times less power) or Joao, not both.
Joao will stay pleased and the bonus for civic will increase.
Btw, we will get wine to trade and drink (which is even better :D ), so I'd not hurry w/ the archers very much, I am sure we will get some extra deals for the wine and the horses.
We will get elephants as well, so happy should be ok for the moment.
--
It's a very important set, so you can delay it as much as you feel. Keep an eye for resource deals.
 
Yes i understand how it works, need to make a perfect fit and since we will have gold at least it should always be doable.

I agree that we should get math before currency but i think researching lit (if we get poly in trade) or drama is very smart. No one has drama yet so i would consider us very unlucky if we couldn't trade it to 2 teams very profitably. There's some chance that Joao gets there too as they just researched aest themselves but they could go lit as well. Think drama after aest is the clear winner in that respect.

Brings me to something i mildly wondered about for a long time but which i never bothered to check, if we research math we'll get 20% discount if we self research currency subsequently. If we trade for currency does it matter if we have math already, does it make the tech 20% cheaper. I realize now that i have no idea although it seems logical to me that it is 20% cheaper.

Don't know about the archers, we're at a stage in the game that unit cost isn't the main factor. We have very good city sites and i think the intention is to grow some cities very big. We have a wealth of resources but for the biggest cities some extra HR happiness might be needed. I think it'll depend how many hammers are invested in the archers, if they're near completion i'd say finish them.
 
Brings me to something i mildly wondered about for a long time but which i never bothered to check, if we research math we'll get 20% discount if we self research currency subsequently.
Click to expand...

Tech. value is solely beakers based, no discounts for pre-req. However, the tech. is devalued when more teams know it. I'd have mentioned if it mattered.
And btw, it is a common misconception that open wonders matter, they don't. The value for music is the same (save for the knowing teams) when the Sistine Chapel is built (the great scientist obviously acquired) and you have a few future technologies.
The AIs value technologies in a very different way when researching or picking 'em free (oracle/lib). But for trading it's beaker/research value (includes team members, inherited AI discounts, etc) and known count + some AI extra modifier that must be xml defined (dunno which tech have it, if any). No flavors or anything included.

The problem w/ drama is that it might be more difficult to "fit" it properly but Toku's team is more likely after literature since it has military flavor.

I think we will be capped by the health not happy for growing too big.
 
Not too surprised, i would probably have noticed in a few games if currency would have been 20% cheaper in trade after you got math. Knew about the other things. Drama currency looks like a deal that is easy to fit. I'm not too worried there. I'll check into total health/happiness from currently available resources.
 
Yes, it can cost on Food/hammers especially if you have to work 1 food coast for instance (checked and it isn't that bad, i may have to redesign some high food tiles though. Mind you i'm not the one in favor of this gamble in the first place.
 
Well, if everything goes smooth in 5 turns we shall have:
Aesthetics/Alphabet+/Drama/Currency+/CoL+ and even some cash left.
Btw, any other preferences to trade for?

(on a side note: we can't work coast tiles at all, no fishing :D )

I think we go for Aesthetics->Drama, Drama should be 3 turns w/o sacrifices.
Trade Drama to Joao not Toku even if the former doesn't have extra money, I think we can use some fair trade bonus w/ him (Toku's bonus is already at 4, so no point attempt for more). Not so sure about that. So it's up to you.

I'd also start build Shwedagon in resource city just to cash it. Looking how quick the wonders go it should be before the end of your turnset.
 
Yes, Drama next is very good, after that, Lit->Music also seems pretty safe bait for trade.

BTW, we don't want to trade small techs like Fishing or Poly this time, It's almost impossible to make any team to friendly for very long time, hence we can only pickup ~6 (maybe a little more later) techs from Monty/Ragnar or (Not sure about Joao/Toku, is the threshold average or based on Toku?) through trading.
 
I can begin playing with those answers, so:

aest in 2
Trade for alpha fitting the deal with gold/extra techs if necessary
Research drama
Try to trade for currency fitting the deal as before

I can research on to col after currency, or should we go poly->lit to try to cash in on this as well. Depends a bit how much possible gain there is i think.

Is resource for Shweda ivory? Then it's a good idea to start it once we have ivory connected.

Edit:
Ok poly->lit->music next depending on situation.

You may have to make a choice about small techs, either fit the deal as bestsss describes and count to wfybta or do don't fit it angering ais. Maybe i can fit with only gold, maybe not.
 
Resource for S-Paya is gold. Always has been, always will be.

And don't worry about trading for small techs. We will be lucky to have anything later on to even trade with the AI, unless we get rather very fortunate.
 
^Gold it is, we've got that. I never finished it and i always have to look up the resource for it. I'm not so sure about the small techs, if it weren't for the deal fitting i would never trade for fishing, poly's a bit better but i use to self research that as well. As for trading later, the ais are not that fast atm, our research will pick up after currency, once we have cs we can have edu soon with some bulbing.

2 questions left, can i use an extra priest in Delhi and do i build a second academy if we get a second GS?
 
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