The Long Freeze

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>



1. Yeah, I'd like to remove the Tribe limit of 1 per civ. It is already pretty expensive, and only your Capitol will be able to produce them at first, so removing that limit shouldn't be a major issue. I'll do that tonight.

2. Wait, when did that change for Gatherers?

1.That didn't go over very well now did it. You got hammered by both Hydro and Koshling. Both of which would prefer the Expansionist playstyle be totally removed from the mod. Of course they call it by the derogatory name of "city spamming".

2. I don't know but had to be fairly recent. If the gatherer is next to a source of fresh water it can gather grain. But if you are on a plain or grassland with no river, oasis, or any adjacent fresh water forget about using the gatherer to produce 1 more food off that grass or plain tile.

I vaguely remember somebody complaining about too much food from gatherers early game. Well they got their wish. Hydro jumped right in there an cut that part out. Good golly but we just can't have a city grow for the 1st 20,000 years. That's just plain unrealistic. Hogwash.
And yes I'm being surly.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

1) Once again, its NOT about trying to cut off a particular play style but trying to stage the flow of the game into something rational. If techs aren't able to improve what you can do, why tech up at all? The play style choice that YOU make would be then best promoted by shooting for Sedentary Lifestyle. You could probably get there within the time it took you to build that second tribe anyhow.

2) As for the gatherer issue, if my memory serves it was Koshling that brought that up as a result of the fact that it was a way to get farms where you couldn't build farms once farms were made available. There's certainly going to be two opinions from players on THAT issue which is why I didn't argue it but I do believe I did say I preferred them to be able to build seed camps where you wouldn't otherwise normally be able to build a farm anyhow. Perhaps the BETTER answer is to make seed camps unable to upgrade into farms if they don't have access to fresh water. But that's a change that'd probably require some coding and well... I kinda like that 'cheat' so to speak. It's one of those things a clever player will take advantage of while a newer one might not see the value. The question becomes whether the AI takes advantage of it and whether its really rational to allow farms to exist outside of the water network or on dry resources.

 

[Hydromancerx]

If we are in a Freeze why are things like changing Tribalism to only give 1 Tribe as a National One time unit being allowed? I really do not like this change. It's another attempt at limiting certain playstyles. And is wrong. Please stop doing things like this, PLease!

Gatherers can not gather grains on grass tiles Unless there is a resource there now? What are they good for now?

I thought Homelessness was moved back from game start? And Pests too? Doesn't seem to be the case, SVN 3914 loaded this morning. I've checked the SVN thread for these changes and they are Not listed.

Who's doing this?

JosEPh

1. We are technically not in the freeze yet until the 15th so new stuff can be added still. However there probably will not be any major stuff done in that time.

2. See my other posts about the Tribe unit.

3. I have no idea about that. Seems like a bug.

4. Homelessness was reduced but not removed from the start. Its at the bare minimum level +1 and +. Note it use to be like +4 and +8.

5. All pests have all been moved to the requirements that DH suggested.

6. All changes are listed in logs as well as the SVN thread. If you don't see something its either not changed yet or you just need to check farther back. We as a team are very good in listing our changes and are transparent in what we do. Mainly because we have to let the other modders know what we are doing.

1.That didn't go over very well now did it. You got hammered by both Hydro and Koshling. Both of which would prefer the Expansionist playstyle be totally removed from the mod. Of course they call it by the derogatory name of "city spamming".

2. I don't know but had to be fairly recent. If the gatherer is next to a source of fresh water it can gather grain. But if you are on a plain or grassland with no river, oasis, or any adjacent fresh water forget about using the gatherer to produce 1 more food off that grass or plain tile.

I vaguely remember somebody complaining about too much food from gatherers early game. Well they got their wish. Hydro jumped right in there an cut that part out. Good golly but we just can't have a city grow for the 1st 20,000 years. That's just plain unrealistic. Hogwash.
And yes I'm being surly.

JosEPh

1. Expansion without consequences is the major balance issue. You are trying to play post-sedentary lifestyle game in the prehistoric era. Basically the prehistoric era is bringing you up to a normal vanilla level civ type of game where you have settler, units, revealed resources and normal diplomacy. The prehistoric era is more or less a build up from nothing to a standard civilization style game.

2. I still don't know what the cause is.

3. Not from me. I did not cut anything out. Please do not blame me for stuff I have not done. I am tired of being your "scapegoat" for anything you dislike in this mod. For the most part I like and appreciate your input however when your being mean like that it makes me not want to even bother addressing your issues.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Post specific examples with a save game, plus a pointer as to what the bonus is doing to provide it's value (I'm kinda hazy on things like aircraft, since I have almost never played that far). You're probably right that the AI doesn't currently look at some indirect effects (it looks at enabled units, commerce changes on buildings from bonus, enabled buildings, but it may be missing some aspect)

I just gave Aircraft as an example it could be other stuff like Jewelry or Sculptures. Basically just go into diplomacy with any civ and try trading building made resources with them. They will consider them worthless compared to map resources such as Apples or Copper which have bonus values.

 

[12padams]

So the answer is, I don't know if it will still be balanced for existing games after the changes.

Will the techs and buldings in my current game require less time to research and build after updating?

 

[Schwarzbart]

The turn numbers and dates should remap correctly on a modifier recalc, so long as I don't change the start date (I won't) However (and I'll explain this in more detail on Friday when I add the changes) I can't guarantee that an old game will be very balanced with the new changes. It is unfortunate, but that happened the last few times I changed Gamespeeds (last March and May), and things continued along OK. So the answer is, I don't know if it will still be balanced for existing games after the changes.

Thanks for this info so I bether start a new Snail (maybe even Eternal then) game when the new version get out and stop my curent one that I played for 2 version changes already. Or I keep playing my old with the old version.

 

[Nimek]

Because we are in freeze period I think this is correct time to tidy up some unrealistic buildings that sounds weird (as buildings). We can do it because we have enought buildings and we plan to add anothers.

List of buidlings to remove after "-" is idea what to do with their effect instead to save game balance.

1 Fire dance - add its effects to Fire Pit with required tech
2 Smoke signals - as above
3 Knowledge inheritance - add its effect to tech
4 Creation myth - as above

The goal is to remove buildings that in reality are not buildings but human behaviors or beliefs. Removing fire dance and smoke signals make fire pit more powerful so we should increase cost of it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Because we are in freeze period I think this is correct time to tidy up some unrealistic buildings that sounds weird (as buildings). We can do it because we have enought buildings and we plan to add anothers.

List of buidlings to remove after "-" is idea what to do with their effect instead to save game balance.

1 Fire dance - add its effects to Fire Pit with required tech
2 Smoke signals - as above
3 Knowledge inheritance - add its effect to tech
4 Creation myth - as above

The goal is to remove buildings that in reality are not buildings but human behaviors or beliefs. Removing fire dance and smoke signals make fire pit more powerful so we should increase cost of it.

The problem is that those come at different techs than the building they are related to. In addition each base building would not necessarily get that in its base form.

Also the prehistoric era is all about the pseudo-buildings anyways. Such as a Berry Bushes or Myth of the Bear. "Building" is a very loose word in this mod. If you cannot wrap your head around them then this is probably not your kind of mod.

If you want you could always add the word "Hut" to the name of it in your mind. Such as "Fire Dance Hut" or "Smoke Signal Hut" if you cannot stand the naming.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I am tired of being your "scapegoat" for anything you dislike in this mod. For the most part I like and appreciate your input however when your being mean like that it makes me not want to even bother addressing your issues.

Point taken. I apologize for pointing the finger at you.

But there is this one thing you need to realize. It is Your work that directly affects everyone's playstyle whether you personally like or dislike a person's style of play. Rarely can I go to Koshling or AIAndy and say hey this AI change is not good for this way of playing. Why? because it's harder to "see" what's been actually done. On the other hand because you make and set and adjust every thing that a player must handle (units the exception) to have a good experience in the game, your decision making is more transparent. And therefore Will get more notice and reactions. I'm sorry that we don't see "eye to eye" on some of the things you envision for the Mod. And when you make changes that, so to speak, pull the rug out from under everyone's feet I speak up and become the critic. And the changes that have had the biggest consequences of late have been the decision to funnel every building thru Trade/Barter posts and storage/granaries. Because you are forced now to take a +Crime hit early in the game with this B&T post funnel. Now you have mitigated it somewhat since you implemented it by adding in the early -Crime Lookout and Sentry Post additions. But at inception that was a Big change in how you play the Mod.

Again I apologize for being "mean". I did warn in the post that I was feeling cranky, but I should've edited it in hindsight.

I have to ask this and if you think it is impolite I apologize up front, are you female or male. Because if I perceive you as being of one gender and you are not then "how" I approach and address issues with you may have to change. Less brusque and blunt maybe.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

@JosEPh_II

1. Apology accepted. I know you mean well. But sometimes you can get a little too grumpy.

2. Well C2C is a mixture of many things such as experimental content, player feedback, personal vision, re-balancing, unintentional bugs/errors and so on. All of which can piss off people. Even doing nothing can make people mad and there is no way to make everyone happy.

Personally I follow 3 rules of modding;

- Try to make the stuff that you always wanted to make. This is the selfish reason but the main motivational factor. Since if you are not doing what you love then why are you doing it? Not like you are getting payed.

- Try to work with the modding group since they have their own goals as well and will more likely help you with your goals if you help them with theirs. This is semi-selfish but still corporation is much more effective than working alone.

- Listen to the players. They are like free testers so take advantage of what they have to say. However, (and I have learned this the hard way) don't always jump and do what they ask. Overreaction and doing every little request can be counterproductive if 2 people have opposite views. Such as the too much gold to too little gold.

Thus you fall in the extreme category where like or not you are a minority voice. You may be one of the loudest voices but louder is not always the right voice. I have to take both my personal experiences with those that have been reported, have seen in Lets plays and other such instances. I also have to both weigh my "gut" vs feedback and ultimate goal.

I am also human and make mistakes too. I have on many occasions changes my mind after debate and convincing. Likewise I have also changed my mind based upon in game testing. However there are some issue I am suborn about and stand by.

For instance the "More is More" mantra that you really can add more detail and more stuff to the mod. that diversity and abundance can make a more deep and awesome game.

I would also like to state that the new stuff like Trade/Barter post requirements were from feedback from Praetyre. Being a modder I wanted to give him a chance. However I wanted to make sure it fit with the mod and thus went though each one one by one over the course of like 2 months. I cared that much about getting it right.

However since it has only been in place less than a month there will be bugs and errors and balance issues. This is to be excepted. This changes were not made to "stick it to you and your playing style" (unless Praetyre has a secret agenda to drive you crazy).

To some extent I blame myself for having so much abundance in my buildings. While you love to remember the buildings you hate to build I have done many of the buildings you love to build as well. All the buildings that give food or gold or hammers. Compared to RoM/AND there was only a faction of those buildings. And even then most of the non-BTS buildings in RoM/AND were in there because I asked for them.

3. Don't worry about it. I can get grumpy sometimes too.

4. Male. However I do not think it is really relevant. What did you think I was?

5. Lastly I really do want to make the game assessable for all play styles. Even your crazy and unconventional one. However I have learned that to make a good game, be it a video game, board game, role playing game or even a story, you have to put in some conflict. This means making it just hard enough your audience/player is hooked but not so much they get frustrated.

Getting the balance is hard. But I do not want to dumb down the game either. The most rewarding games I have played are not dumb down are challenging. I hate the "causal games" that are taking over video games and even Civ5 seemed to follow this trend. Since C2C is a mod I think we can avoid that since we are not trying to sell it and if your downloading the mod your probably already a civ fan.

So yeah I am hopeful to this freeze period and everything beyond. But with a team like ours and great players like you C2C will be the best Civ4 mod out there. If not the best version of the civilization series!

 

[Nimek]

If you want you could always add the word "Hut" to the name of it in your mind. Such as "Fire Dance Hut" or "Smoke Signal Hut" if you cannot stand the naming.

That resolved my problem. Thank you Hydro

 

[Koshling]

Because we are in freeze period I think this is correct time to tidy up some unrealistic buildings that sounds weird (as buildings). We can do it because we have enought buildings and we plan to add anothers.

List of buidlings to remove after "-" is idea what to do with their effect instead to save game balance.

1 Fire dance - add its effects to Fire Pit with required tech
2 Smoke signals - as above
3 Knowledge inheritance - add its effect to tech
4 Creation myth - as above

The goal is to remove buildings that in reality are not buildings but human behaviors or beliefs. Removing fire dance and smoke signals make fire pit more powerful so we should increase cost of it.

This is kind of why I wanted to add a category tag to buildings, so we could make them appear in a different tag (thus only actual real life buildings would appear in the 'buildings' tab' - these would move to 'special' (where crime etc. is) or get a new tab. IMO just moving them to 'special' would do a lot to clan up the 'appearance'. I don't think any actual change in game mechanics or functional 'building' attributes is warranted.

 

[ls612]

Will the techs and buldings in my current game require less time to research and build after updating?

Depends on what era you are in. I'll explain the actual numbers in detail tomorrow when I add the changes, but if you are in a later era your techs will go slower, not faster.

@Hydro & JosEPh:

1. I take the point about Tribes, and their national limit. However, I do think that the Tribe should NOT be exempt from the Unlimited National Units option (it was before), that way if people don't like the limit on them there's a gameoption for that.

2. I would ask both of you to put off criticism about the growth rate until after my Gamespeed changes tomorrow. They are going to be fairly wide-reaching, and might change aspects of the argument (although you will still have the NL on Tribes).

3. This discussion is very useful to have during the Long Freeze, even if Joe is getting a bit grumpy. We'll always have disagreements, but hashing them out now is the best strategy, as opposed to waiting for some other time.

 

[strategyonly]

Depends on what era you are in. I'll explain the actual numbers in detail tomorrow when I add the changes, but if you are in a later era your techs will go slower, not faster.

One thing everyone has to remember C2C has three extra ERA's that other mods do NOT, the first one must IMPRESS everyone that starts the C2C mod, so it has to be around the best starting one out there. Otherwise you get those that start, then leave. . . not good. So there is actually NO comparing other mods with this one, thats just absurd. . .

As you mention above longer "tech" time in later era's i am all for that, because even with marathon you can get some of the techs for less than 11 turns, not good, just a little boring but not to much (as long as things get "better" tweaked.)

Tweaking is a MAIN strategy "we" modders need to take heed of, it helps tremendously. . . SO

 

[Thunderbrd]

This is kind of why I wanted to add a category tag to buildings, so we could make them appear in a different tag (thus only actual real life buildings would appear in the 'buildings' tab' - these would move to 'special' (where crime etc. is) or get a new tab. IMO just moving them to 'special' would do a lot to clan up the 'appearance'. I don't think any actual change in game mechanics or functional 'building' attributes is warranted.

I really think this is a good idea! Some buildings are more 'developments' or 'practices' and could help us envision this better if they were labeled as such. It'd also help us with messaging on autobuilds so that we have something more along the lines of "X city is suffering from an invasion of cockroaches" rather than "X city has constructed cocroaches!"


@ls612: I couldn't recall off hand if I'd given tribes the national limit exception on unlimited national units but if we wish to remove it that's fine. I just don't like seeing our AI's kill themselves by overspreading like they tend to do.

 

[Mouthwash]

*COUGH*

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have not personally analyzed the impact of Divine Cults having no non-state religion spread. However, I am a bit concerned that it may somehow interrupt divine prophets from originating a religion at all. In which case, I think the answer might be to create an exception that helps them get around that. Otherwise I don't think its irrational to make DC have no non-state religion spread. Many early religions were fairly hostile to other beliefs and considered their religion to be what defined the nation as a culture in the first place.

That said, I haven't analyzed it in other ways enough to say if its 'imbalanced' currently. But I'll take a look at it in game soon. And I recall when I last looked at it it HAD seemed fairly weak where it could've been made a nice and strong counterpart to Prophets that had some good benefits if you were willing to put up with its penalties.

 

[Mouthwash]

I have not personally analyzed the impact of Divine Cults having no non-state religion spread. However, I am a bit concerned that it may somehow interrupt divine prophets from originating a religion at all. In which case, I think the answer might be to create an exception that helps them get around that. Otherwise I don't think its irrational to make DC have no non-state religion spread. Many early religions were fairly hostile to other beliefs and considered their religion to be what defined the nation as a culture in the first place.

That said, I haven't analyzed it in other ways enough to say if its 'imbalanced' currently. But I'll take a look at it in game soon. And I recall when I last looked at it it HAD seemed fairly weak where it could've been made a nice and strong counterpart to Prophets that had some good benefits if you were willing to put up with its penalties.

No, everyone in my game currently is Druidic (except for a few eastern Shamanists). I am having to GIVE away Writing and Monotheism and then beg them to adopt State Church, which is next to impossible because no one likes the apostate.

Seriously, if you aren't willing to do it, could you at least tell me how I could do it manually?

 

[Mouthwash]

Btw, "oppression" is spelled wrong in the civics.

 

[shenryyr]

One thing everyone has to remember C2C has three extra ERA's that other mods do NOT, the first one must IMPRESS everyone that starts the C2C mod, so it has to be around the best starting one out there. Otherwise you get those that start, then leave. . . not good. So there is actually NO comparing other mods with this one, thats just absurd. . .

and it does that very well. the problem I have is once I hit the renaissance, industrial, and modern eras the game slows down to an incredible crawl, and it's not due to my slow turns(I am quite slow), it's the AI's turns that take forever. each era multiplies the length of time it takes to finish a single turn. I'm not sure anything can be done about this since the mod adds so much content, but having to start a new game just to get the sense that you can actually play it is not exactly fun. As much as I enjoy the starting era, I would like to finish a game now and then. And that's something I haven't yet done, despite starting plenty of them. I just get too frustrated with the length of time spent and wind up starting a new game.